Getting attention at a distance

Discussion in 'Labrador Training' started by Jen, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    It's occurred to me that Heidrun didn't reply to my question why would walking her dogs sabotage all her training?

    Does that mean if a trained working lab was taken on as a pet it would ruin all it had learnt. Does the converse then apply? Can a pet lab ever really be fully trained as a working dog. Obviously up to a point it can but I'm guessing it would be hard to get it to field trial standard.

    In that case with pet labs who are being gundog trained does it matter how the results are achieved. For example Julie's trainer has told her Charlie needs to be steady so she can't just throw a ball for him. If the chance of a thrown ball gets Charlie to stop sit how important is the steady? Obviously that's Julie's decision how important it is to her.

    It was just a thought because I tend to follow instructions to the letter but do I need to ? I'm training my dogs using gundog methods because that's what they are bred for and I want them to use that ability. I think it's good for them physically and mentally and I feel responsible to train them to the best of my ability as gundogs. That being the problem my ability not theirs. ;)
     
  2. JulieT

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    I don't follow things to the letter. For example, I don't care much about Charlie chomping (not that's it's bad). I also didn't care about a delivery to hand until Charlie started legging it with the dummy, so I thought I'd follow the clicker retrieve. This is because we're never going shooting, so I don't care about damage to birds.

    I think there is a limit though, I kind of go along with the trainer's programme, because it's her job to set out a programme for me and help me follow it, and it would probably be a bit difficult if I always wanted to change things a bit. But I absolutely agree, do you own thing to suit your dog and what you want to do.

    My big motivation for steadiness is to move on to directional control. Which I'm dying to do. Charlie is also a pain - when he watches other dogs go for a retrieve, he makes a big fuss, and steadiness training helps with that too.
     
  3. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    I think it's this:

    If your dog learns that by pleasing himself he has as much or more fun than when he does as he's told your ability to get your dog to listen to you and work with gets diminished. It's a lot of work to train to a decent standard let alone the trialling standard Heidrun trains to so why would you risk undoing all that work.

    I have definitely prioritised other things over steadiness but Riley isn't a complete retrieverholic like Charlie so getting him steady won't be as hard for me as it is for Julie. I'm reasonably happy with my choices and I like that however Riley ends up that's the product of all our effort. I've been lucky with this forum and the trainers I've been to and had, on the whole, very good advice :)
     
  4. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    Walking Poppy off lead doesn't sabotage Karen's training, and just as Lisa and I have said if you don't have dogs off lead how are they ever going to respond to all the training and effort as owners we have put in. If you are working your dogs I can see the point to a point. I trust Hattie and yes she and I make mistakes but we are always learning and one day I will trust Charlie as bless his soul he is STILL trying ::)
     
  5. JulieT

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    [quote author=charlie link=topic=3548.msg39729#msg39729 date=1386337297]
    Walking Poppy off lead doesn't sabotage Karen's training, and just as Lisa and I have said if you don't have dogs off lead how are they ever going to respond to all the training and effort as owners we have put in. If you are working your dogs I can see the point to a point. I trust Hattie and yes she and I make mistakes but we are always learning and one day I will trust Charlie as bless his soul he is STILL trying ::)
    [/quote]

    I do wonder whether this question of walks has a few crossed wires in it.

    It's not really about off lead - is it? I have Charlie off lead for all of his training apart from heel on lead and (unfortunately) have to train in public places because my garden is the size of a postage stamp and I'm in the middle of London. I also travel from A to B and still train. I'm sure it depends on the dog too - maybe Poppy and Hattie already have a sufficient level of training to be trusted to be sensible.

    But for my Charlie, I know if I switch off and let him do what he wants (ie I just walk and expect him to roughly follow me along), he amuses himself, gets up to all sorts of mischief with joggers, kids, cyclists etc. bothers other people and other dogs, hunts further and further away, and his responsiveness and recall slow right down...I think if I did that all the time, he'd be out of control (what little I have) in no time at all.
     
  6. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    I agree with you Helen you have to find out some way if all the training works or why do it.

    However if I let my dogs off lead to do what they want it would be a situation like Julie has described. As I've said before I only let my dogs loose on our property which is not necessarily a good thing to proof and test training although I know I'm very lucky. But even though we are on our property I don't leave them to their own devices. Every so often I say race and they shoot off chasing each other but the rest of the time I TRY to keep their attention and if not individual 'formal training' I will do something to focus them.

    My point about walking a highly trained working dog is if it's on a lead what effect will that have on its training. Walking a dog to me doesn't necessarily include letting them loose. In fact in my world walking the dog never includes letting it loose. ::)
     
  7. charlie

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    Your right it's getting a little muddled. My only issue is the not believing in 'the dog walk' and that dogs should not be off lead, I just really wanted to know how you can train your dog if it's not off lead, all easy if you have acres of space to accomplish this. My Charlie is defintely a no switch off dog and the work we have put in may one day pay us back, we can but hope, so I do understand that totally. Hattie is a good dog and can still be a bit 'naughty' but I don't want perfection as I don't believe life is like that :) Each to their own at the end of the day :)

    Whether your dogs are on or off lead it's just about enjoying them, for me my walk every day for almost 2 hours with Hattie is my total escapism from everything and everyone and I wouldn't swap it for all the tea in China :) :) xxx
     
  8. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    Well said Helen and I'm sure all your work will pay off.

    I agree with you about perfection. It would be wonderful but dogs will be dogs and that's why we love them. ;)
     
  9. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    [quote author=Jen link=topic=3548.msg39756#msg39756 date=1386341756]
    Well said Helen and I'm sure all your work will pay off.

    I agree with you about perfection. It would be wonderful but dogs will be dogs and that's why we love them. ;)
    [/quote]

    It might be wonderful but oh soooo boring ;)
     
  10. Stacia

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    My Labs have at least an hour's off lead walk a day and interspersed with being free I do some training, usually with dummies, straight lines, hunting, left/rights etc. I think all work and no play make Jack a very dull boy. Dogs need to experience getting over ditches, learning to leave other dogs alone, how to keep their eye on their owner and how to self control when given freedom.
     
  11. pippa@labforumHQ

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    Is this the method you are using Julie? And if so, at what point have you got stuck? Can you place a dummy on the ground behind you without Charlie moving?
     
  12. Stacia

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    JulietT you say your dog isn't steady so you cannot reward the sit to whistle with a ball as he will run in. How about 'blow whistle, dog sits, then throw the ball to your dog to catch".
     
  13. kateincornwall

    kateincornwall Registered Users

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    Helen I can see where you are coming from :)
    Sam is a working bred Lab, but then he doesnt know this does he ? Yes, the genetic make up means that he enjoys retrieving but then so does Millie and she is a terrier ;D
    I do let Sam off lead , in safe environments , he usually wants to retrieive and I do try to give him this pleasure mainly because it keeps mind and body active . To be honest , his delivery isnt excellent, his steadiness is far from it, but then as he wont ever be used as a gundog , I`m not going to get myself in a tizz over it . He responds to me , I can like you Helen, have a nice relaxed walk, safe in the knowledge that he isnt going to run off , I call him away from other dogs, he comes , so thats enough for me .
    I do believe that the training we started when he was a pup/young dog, mainly gundog training, has set him in good stead and its ongoing, but perfection is never going to happen and for my lifestyle thats fine :)
     
  14. pippa@labforumHQ

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    I think it has, I am certainly getting confused :) Working dogs owned by 'serious' (whatever that means :) ) gundog trainers aren't walked on the lead. In fact they are rarely on the lead, but they are always 'under instruction'

    Each time they travel in a particular direction, it is for a particular purpose. So for example, my spaniels are always either a) at heel b) quartering to a pattern or c) retrieving. There is no point at which I don't know what they are doing, or exactly where they are. With retrievers it is even more simple. They are either a) at heel or b) retrieving.

    I don't know if that makes any more sense.
     
  15. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    [quote author=heidrun link=topic=3548.msg39520#msg39520 date=1386246597]
    [quote author=charlie link=topic=3548.msg39508#msg39508 date=1386244165]
    [quote author=heidrun link=topic=3548.msg39503#msg39503 date=1386243066]
    [quote author=bbrown link=topic=3548.msg39502#msg39502 date=1386242859]
    And that's why very serious trainers don't walk their dogs ;D
    [/quote]

    I don't see myself as a very serious trainer, but I don't walk my dogs. It would pretty much sabotage everything I train for. And that just doesn't make any sense to me. ;)
    [/quote]

    Is this only relevant to people who use their dogs for working and have put endless training into them? Also it's a little easier not to walk your dog if you have the land for any free time you allow your dogs to have. There are plenty of well behaved off lead pet dogs :) I get pretty upset by the no walking concept :(
    [/quote]

    No, I don't think it is only relevant to people working their dogs. I get equally upset about the staggering number of young dogs, especially spaniels and other hunting bred dogs, getting into serious trouble because of the concept of taking the dog for a walk..
    This is a very interesting article for anyone who hasn't read it yet. http://totallygundogs.com/the-trouble-with-springers-part-one/
    [/quote]

    Did it start here? I'm not confused :)
     
  16. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    [quote author=editor link=topic=3548.msg39766#msg39766 date=1386342679]
    I think it has, I am certainly getting confused :) Working dogs owned by 'serious' (whatever that means :) ) gundog trainers aren't walked on the lead. In fact they are rarely on the lead, but they are always 'under instruction'

    Each time they travel in a particular direction, it is for a particular purpose. So for example, my spaniels are always either a) at heel b) quartering to a pattern or c) retrieving. There is no point at which I don't know what they are doing, or exactly where they are. With retrievers it is even more simple. They are either a) at heel or b) retrieving.

    I don't know if that makes any more sense.
    [/quote]

    I understand why this is the case. If I ever wanted to be serious (whatever that means ;) ) when and where would my dog go to the loo?

    That is a serious question as I have a minor challenge that when Riley is anything other than completely focused he may get distracted from his job and take time out to mark. I'm not sure, other than by always trying to increase his retrieving desire, I will ever get round this as we do go for walks and he marks to his hearts content while off lead. I did consider not taking him out til he'd gone to the loo in the garden and then putting him on his lead and preventing him from going to the loo but I think I've probably left it too late to break this habit and also I don't really want him to always go to the loo in the garden as Lizzie spends quite a bit of time out there even in the winter.
     
  17. charlie

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    [quote author=kateincornwall link=topic=3548.msg39763#msg39763 date=1386342571]
    Helen I can see where you are coming from :)
    Sam is a working bred Lab, but then he doesnt know this does he ? Yes, the genetic make up means that he enjoys retrieving but then so does Millie and she is a terrier ;D
    I do let Sam off lead , in safe environments , he usually wants to retrieive and I do try to give him this pleasure mainly because it keeps mind and body active . To be honest , his delivery isnt excellent, his steadiness is far from it, but then as he wont ever be used as a gundog , I`m not going to get myself in a tizz over it . He responds to me , I can like you Helen, have a nice relaxed walk, safe in the knowledge that he isnt going to run off , I call him away from other dogs, he comes , so thats enough for me .
    I do believe that the training we started when he was a pup/young dog, mainly gundog training, has set him in good stead and its ongoing, but perfection is never going to happen and for my lifestyle thats fine :)
    [/quote]

    Very well put Kate, couldn't agree more :)
     
  18. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    My dogs will stop to empty themselves at heel, either on or off the lead. I either keep walking, and they catch me up when they have finished, or more usually, I wait for them. My heelwork is not so strict that dogs can't stop for a pee :), in fact, with four or five dogs at heel, the heel position is inevitably fairly 'loose'.

    I also have a command 'hurry up' which means 'do a wee' and they can move around near to me when I say this, to find 'the right place' to go.
     
  19. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    Another stupid question......have you always had girls? Or would you say that works regardless of sex? Some days Riley would mark every 5 yards if I let him ::) particularly in the lane nearest us as it's like the M27 for dogs.

    Riley will pee on command but he keeps a bit back from marking I'm sure :eek:
     
  20. kateincornwall

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    Re: Getting attention at a distance

    Now thats interesting Barbara , Sam is nowhere near as trained in gundoggery as Riley but when we are retreiving , he never ever wees or poos , will hang on until the session is done and the ball/dummy has gone into my bag .
     

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