Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" Well, I'm in the camp of 'let them shake when they feel like it, as long as they hand the dummy over first' if that makes sense. I'm blessed with a dog who loves water and doesn't mind being wet in the slightest (much like Charlie!) and she's pretty much always just come out and finished the retrieve without shaking (we did a bit of tweaking in the early days, but not a huge problem). Sometimes I even get a (drippy!) seated delivery ;D ;D and she can go 3 or more retrieves without a shake if she knows the next one is coming up. So I never really worried about shaking on cue, as it wasn't a problem that needed solving. Given that Charlie has serious dummy obsession, this might be a reasonable route- concentrating on the behaviour you do want (finishing the retrieve) rather than what you don't want (shaking).
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" I'm quite interested in the rationale for putting shake on cue though...lots of people do it...
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" With my first dog I put shake on cue so we could get him to dry off a bit before doing something like getting in the car. He reliably responded to the cue. But he still shook at other times when he wanted to, uncued. I don't think that putting self rewarding behaviours on cue stops them happening at other times (eg putting barking on cue does not stop spontaneous barking). So I'm not convinced that putting shake on cue will solve the problem.... Having said that, one thing you could try is getting him to shake while on a target (like, in a hula hoop) then make a behaviour chain out of it....exit water, deliver dummy, go to hula hoop to shake for a reward. Then gradually phase out the hula hoop. Bit of a palaver though.... Have you tried marking as he's coming out of the water, so he's thinking of coming for a reward, not thinking of shaking? Might be interesting to talk to Boogie about how she trained her Guide Dog pup to poop only in the spending area. How did she stop spontaneous pooping out in the street? Was it just a matter of heavily rewarding pooping in the designated area? Might be some useful insights there. With the spontaneous heeling - I get a lot of that too. I actully reward it. I don't think heeling is ever a bad thing or an inconvenience and I want my dog to really like it.
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" [quote author=Oberon link=topic=9954.msg144850#msg144850 date=1424459682] With the spontaneous heeling - I get a lot of that too. I actully reward it. I don't think heeling is ever a bad thing or an inconvenience and I want my dog to really like it. [/quote] I haven't stopped rewarding spontaneous heeling (not least because it's a great way to start getting, marking and rewarding the behaviour in more distracting environments). So this is the thing, exactly. What are the limits to "The dog does not perform the behaviour in the absence of the cue". There seems to be an awful lot of exceptions that people with well trained dogs allow...
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" To stop behaviour ever being performed in the absence of the cue I think one or more of the following would have to apply: - it'd need to have minimal intrinsic reward for the animal - you'd need to make uncued behaviour aversive (Obviously you are not going to do that) or totally without reward - you'd need a 'do not perform the behaviour' cue (like 'quiet' = 'do not bark') - performing the behaviour on cue would need to be massively rewarded. My view of shaking is that it's a natural, comfort related behaviour (ridding the coat of water) and I wouldn't want to deny my dog the choice to do it by attempting to prevent it ever happening unless I've cued it. I don't see any problem with training 'don't do it' or training an incompatible alternative in specific, time limited contexts though.
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" That's good. Do you consider Obi's heel is properly on cue, even though the behaviour happens uncued? I mean, if yes, you don't think the uncured thing matters, or is it very context specific, maybe. You wouldn't expect him to do it uncued in other circumstances - at training, in a competition. I suppose i'm wondering how much it matters to the effectiveness of the cue, or level of stimulus control (rather than worrying about the actual behaviour).
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" Obi's heel is definitely on cue. He is quick to respond to the cue and he has a nice position. In my experience of heeling, rewarding uncued heeling has only improved his cued heeling. There has been no downside (other than him heeling when I'd rather he be relaxing and walking more casually). I guess it's made heeling more enjoyable, more rewarding and more accessible in his brain. We do also do regular practise of cued heeling, in lots of situations (very short, less than 1 minute sessions. I never 'drill' it). Despite the uncued heeling, in an obedience test he doesn't offer heeling unless cued. He knows he'll get asked to do any number of other things and is waiting to find out which. We never do things in a set order and we don't repeat learned things much as I don't want patterns or anticipation. I do think that Obi is less driven than Charlie. Obi is not the kind of dog who will put in 100% effort for 100 repetitions
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" I've totally missed this but I'm confused as to why something shouldn't happen unless it's cued. I would think that a large number of things happen uncles that also have a cue associated with them. Are our dogs not allowed to sit until asked? I agree with Rachael it sounds like Charlie has found place boards massively rewarding so anticipated commands. Do you have any "ready to stat training" cues that might involve him getting off the place board and waiting to be asked t do something? If so I'm not clear why his jumping on the board is a problem. There's no reward for the first jump on when the board goes down, will he therefore distinguish between that and all other get on the board activities and it will become extinct? I was told that Obi should be working when not on lead and that his default behaviour (cued by removal of lead) should be to look at me and wait for instruction. I can see the logic in that and it would stop him running around for a sniff or throwing behaviour at me hoping for the right one to result in a reward.... Very interesting discussion and a late night reply so I hope it makes sense
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9954.msg144910#msg144910 date=1424474949] I've totally missed this but I'm confused as to why something shouldn't happen unless it's cued. I would think that a large number of things happen uncles that also have a cue associated with them. Are our dogs not allowed to sit until asked? [/quote] Not according to my trainer, and not according to Pippa, but I suspect my standards are somewhat more random, in my mixed pet/half trained dog world where my training is done on walks - so I'm trying to work out what it means for me, in a practical way. Pippa on the point: “ But wait a minute” you say “my dog often sits or lies down. If I haven’t told him to, does that mean his behaviour is not under stimulus control?” The answer is ‘no’, this is a question of context. Specifically, it is about the context of the ‘training session’ It is fine if your dog performs natural behaviours without being cued to do so, provided those behaviours don’t occur during the training session. " [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9954.msg144910#msg144910 date=1424474949] Do you have any "ready to stat training" cues that might involve him getting off the place board and waiting to be asked t do something? If so I'm not clear why his jumping on the board is a problem. There's no reward for the first jump on when the board goes down, will he therefore distinguish between that and all other get on the board activities and it will become extinct? [/quote] I have a "ready?" cue to start training, yes. And a "finish" cue. (Although Charlie's response to "ready?" is a tad over enthusiastic leading my trainer to say "Charlie is never not ready...." ;D ;D ;D). It's not so much him jumping on a place board is a problem really (apart from when it's not my placeboard, but the placeboard belonging to another student :-[ ), but that I was told it shouldn't happen unless cued...which started me thinking about the meaning of stimulus control and uncued behaviours....
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" Sometimes when I'm training (at Flyball) Obi will do uncued things that he enjoys - this would mainly be going over a jump without being asked. And sometimes just running off and jumping in the paddling pool (which he also does on cue....) when he is supposed to be doing a Flyball run :. If something uncued happens that is supposed to be cued (or when you have cued something else entirely!) you can't claim to have it under stimulus control.... But, when this happens, I ask myself.....does it really matter? Running off to the pool in the middle of a race is something of a pain, as it means we lose the race, but it's not a cardable offence, and spectators love it and I am not really so hard core about Flyball that I care, and neither is my team. So I just laugh about it.
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" Julie hi I'm currently working my way through the Karen Pyror foundation course for clicker training. There is a brilliant example of exactly this in there, where someone is teaching a dog not to offer the behaviour without a cue...it's only a chihuahua and the placeboard is very small/easily moved ...but If the dog goes without cue she doesn't reward obviously, but I can't remember exactly how she shapes the right behaviours on cue. I'll watch it again later today more closely and let you know if I can give you any other clues. Lisa
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" It's quite different in Guide Doggy land. A lot of their behaviours must be 'off cue' and many things they must decide for themselves. They are not just negotiating ground level objects, but eye level obstructions too. They have to decide 'can my owner and I both get through there?' If they decide not - then they stop and await instructions. But if the owner gives an unsafe instruction (eg 'straight on' when a car is coming) then they must disobey and refuse to move. So it's a balance in training. We give cues, of course, but we also very much want the dog to think for themselves. At the moment I am teaching 'steady' which means slowing down to a snail's pace when an obstruction is up ahead eg people blocking the path. But we are working towards Gypsy doing that automatically and her making the decision to slow us down. The same with steps, I stop her with her feet on the bottom step - but she will be learning to do that with no cue when she's working - as with stopping at kerbs and so on. A great deal of her work will be cue free
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" I think it's quite telling that Helen says Charlie is always ready. Does this mean for him he is always training and that's why you get a huge amount of offered behaviours. Perhaps you need to teach "not training right now"? ;D
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" I think the huge amount of offered behaviours is just a function of how he's been trained - training means play, which is a huge motivator for him. As Rachael says above, this is viewed as a very positive thing by most people who "train this way". But it does lead to me needing to think how I turn those trained behaviour off when I need to do so, yes.
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" Julie I've rewatched the video in my Karen Pryor clicker foundation course, the trainer ignores any spontaneous behaviour off cue, the dog eventually moves as they realise this hasn't elicited their reward. She immediately gives the cue, the dog moves back, C&T. The presence of ur placeboard has become the cue to mark the behaviour, she gets round this by picking it up and moving it, again no C&T for off cue behaviour, I realise this might be more difficult for you. She is looking for a tiny pause from the dog so she can give the cue. Also then removes the target for any off cue behaviour briefly before replacing it, again looking for those pauses when she can give the cue and the dog associates the behaviour with the (verbal) cue and not the object. Hope this helps...would love to hear if you have some success. Also I'm dying to ask as a positive reinforment trainer do you never say no or agh agh, if not how do you correct a dog for doing something you don't want.....I will try and ignore some/rewarding behaviour I want but there are sometimes when I think an in the moment agh agh is more powerful and the dog knows that wasn't, what they were supposed to do. Anyway love to hear your thoughts on this subject!
Re: Getting behaviour "off cue" [quote author=LisaB link=topic=9954.msg145074#msg145074 date=1424588422] Also I'm dying to ask as a positive reinforment trainer do you never say no or agh agh, if not how do you correct a dog for doing something you don't want.....I will try and ignore some/rewarding behaviour I want but there are sometimes when I think an in the moment agh agh is more powerful and the dog knows that wasn't, what they were supposed to do. Anyway love to hear your thoughts on this subject! [/quote] I only say no-no and ah-ah when I make a mistake, and even then these days - very thankfully - I half mutter it in more or less a neutral tone (and try not to beat myself up about it later). I don't correct my dog. I try to arrange things so I don't have to correct him. And if it's something that I can't prevent there and then, I ignore it and work out how to do things differently next time if I can. My trainer tells me to "do the least reinforcing thing". Which for my dog is to look away from him (he likes an audience when he's playing the fool, which is the thing he does wrong most).
