I don't intend this post to be inflammatory in any way, but I am genuinely interested in people's thoughts - breeders and owners alike. We planned for 2 years before we got our lab. We waited until we bought a house and had moved out of rented accommodation, then we chose the house with a big garden and a wipe clean floor. When we changed our car we chose one that would comfortable transport a lab. We researched breeders, visited them, chose them based on all the reading we had done, and then patiently waited a year until our litter was available, and saved lots of money while we waited. We genuinely tried to do everything right. Fast forward 4 weeks and I'm rushing our girl to the emergency vets at 1am only to find out that she has serious enteritis and colitis, and that it was caused by Giardia. She was hospitalised for a week. She's 7 months old now and it's been a constant worry with secondary infections and a very sensitive tummy. As the inexperienced owners that we were, we hadn't realised that her poos since we'd brought her home were diarrhoea - we just thought it was puppy poo because that's what it had been like in the kennels at the breeders. We had all the documents to say she'd been wormed, we asked all the questions we thought we should about all the known lab health issues and test scores. Little did we know that she was incredibly poorly. We've met at least 4 people locally who have had the exact same experience with their vets almost certain that the parasite was contracted at the breeders - all completely different breeds and breeders from all different parts of the UK. So my question is, what SHOULD we expect from our breeders? Is it reasonable to expect them to test puppies for parasites such as this before handing them over to new owners. With a litter of 8-10 I imagine this could get really expensive and it's probably not practical to test for all known parasites and worms either? Despite this though, I do feel really let down by the whole experience and by our breeder. Friends of ours have asked us for advice in choosing a breeder, and although I've passed on what I know about checking eyes, elbow and hip scores etc, I'm at a loss as to how to advise them in protecting themselves against buying a puppy with hidden gut health issues - I'd hate anyone to have such a crappy experience as we had.
Sorry - I should probably have said too that the breeder we chose came highly recommended, had years of experience, and I honestly don't think there was any intended negligence on his part. You could tell he genuinely loved his dogs, loved working his dogs and breeding was a real passion of his. We met Dam and Sire, we even met Grand-sire! He gave us time and knowledge - everything I'm sure was above board. Hence my question - even with really experienced and reputable breeders - what should we expect?
Hi LoopyLuna, i completely agree, we've had 2 labs and like yourselves we saved, waited for exactly the right time, researched and did everything we could to ensure a good experience for pup and for us but found ourselves and both our poor pups had to go through very distressing and worrying months of illness, our first dog with compylerbacter and our now new pup with Giardia. It is very frightening and upsetting
So, the thing is: There are many different causes of runny puppy poops - and some of them are not related to parasites at all. It is extremely common for puppies to get runny poops in response to the stress involved in changing homes, and even the change in the tap water between the breeder's house and the new home. Frequently they are given treats for the first time when many breeders have given them nothing other than puppy food - so they also have new foods on top of that to digest and process. They can get 'into' chewing on stuff and eating stuff they are not supposed to. And then they are given vaccinations, which affect the immune system and can cause runny poops the next day or so. Not to mention that wormers themselves (also frequently given at this age) can also cause upset tummies for a day or two afterwards. So - leaving parasites and bacteria aside - there are many many other causes of runny poops in puppies, to the point that I would be incredibly surprised if anyone managed to get through puppyhood without runny poops. And none of these have anything to do with the breeder. Then, looking at parasites: Worms themselves can cause runny stools and almost all puppies are born with some sort of roundworm burden, because pregnancy hormones activate encysted roundworms in the mother, which are passed to the puppies via her milk. These should be picked up by the wormers given by the breeder, so should not be a cause of runny poops by the time they go to a new home. Then, moving to bacteria: You have campylobacter (very common in young puppies - more common than giardia); and giardia; and coccidia (also very common). Campylobacter and coccidia are more common than giardia, in puppies. However: Research shows that many, many HEALTHY dogs with NO symptoms, have giardia, campylobacter and coccidia in their stool samples. In fact, it could be said to be normal that dogs have these in their stools and we don't treat if they are asymptomatic. And then: Research also shows (and my own personal experience, ha!) that many SICK dogs WITH giardia, campylobacter and coccidia (especially with giardia) do NOT have any evidence of them in the stool sample - because they are not shed in every stool. They are shed intermittently and unless you happen to sample a poop with giardia in it, you would never know. So: Testing puppies routinely for these things before they leave the breeder would achieve nothing, because if we found something, it would be meaningless if there were no symptoms (poo was normal). Equally, if poo is not normal and you run a test and the test finds nothing - again, that doesn't mean it's not giardia - it just means it wasn't in that poop. BUT: A breeder should not sell a puppy they know to be unwell. They should only sell a puppy they know to be in tiptop condition and health. If puppies have runny poop at the breeder's premises, the breeder needs to treat them for that before they are sold. And a good breeder (by definition) KNOWS their puppies and what is going in and coming out of them. They are monitoring that, and they are living in close proximity to their puppies. The puppies are not living in kennels outside, where the poop is ignored (just like the noise and the mess) and just swept aside without a second glance - they are living indoors, and everything about the litter is closely monitored. I know you said this breeder is a 'good' breeder with an 'excellent' reputation but I would encourage you to look for something different and more than that, if you get a puppy in the future - because selling puppies with runny stools is not a sign of a 'good' breeder. You might want to look into Puppy Culture or Avidog breeders: https://shoppuppyculture.com/pages/breeder-world-map https://www.avidog.com/avidog-associate-breeder-list/ Our last litter had a gastro upset - probably coccidia or campylobacter - and we had to call the vet out to see them. He prescribed a course of Synulox ABs for them all. All in, it cost about £200 for the call-out and ABs for 7 puppies. It was not cheap. This is what these breeders are skimping on by passing the buck to new puppy owners. Luckily the pups had all finished their ABs and had normal poops by the time they were 8 weeks and could go to their homes, but we would have had to keep them on longer - if not.
Thanks for such a comprehensive reply @Jo Laurens - Our 4 legged friends do like to keep us on our toes with their bowel movements Never have I discussed poo in as much detail as I have in the past 5 months!!! I did have a hunch that there was little breeders could do to provide certainty for new owners - especially with Giardia, but it's good to hear a balanced view of why. This is my biggest regret in our choice of breeder. I now know (and have recommended to friends that have asked me) that choosing a puppy that's raised in a home environment is so important (socialising, health, general familiarity with a home environment). Hindsight is a wonderful thing and inexperience clearly left us open to having our trust exploited. You are right that they must have known there was tummy trouble (which might explain why they laboured the point with us about dealing with diarrhoea, worming and ensuring we always used Panacur). Ugh, I could kick myself! We live and learn - it just makes me sad that our little one had to go through a lot of discomfort in the process. She has definitely found her beans now though (all the beans!!)
