Goes totally crazy around chicken and bacon...cant be trusted

Hi there, I have posted a few times and have so appreciated everyones help, and so far Huxley is going great with so many things. We love him dearly, and he is a happy little guy.
He is now 14 weeks old just to give you an idea, so he is getting bigger and stronger, and those teeth are sharp.
The only thing we are having real trouble with at the moment is his behaviour around some foods...predominantly human cooked meats, chicken and bacon, and steak to some degree. He is fed Eukanuba puppy kibble, which he is well behaved around, he will sit for his bowl, he doesnt get over excited, you can hand feed him, and you can remove his bowl while he is eating from it without problems.

Now if you bring some freshly cooked chicken or bacon ANYWHERE near him, it is a whole different story. Even last night he wandered inside and smelled a chicken cooking and started to lose the plot. Barking, jumping up, biting at my hands. If you actually try and feed it to him by hand he is way way too rough and will cut you, and if you put it in his bowl he leaps around and will not stay seated for you to put it down. The other day my mum fed him a bowl of bacon and vege scraps and while she wasnt looking and had the bowl in her hands he leapt up and bit her hand leaving four tooth holes!
Obviously I do not want this behaviour to continue, for our sake, but also because more importantly, I am 13 weeks pregnant with our first baby, and I would hate to ever have to be worried about him around the child when the child is eating. Even a child we dont know at the beach - at this point he would basically take its hand off to get hold of the food.
I dont really know how to approach this problem, as he is so over excited when he gets one smell of the food, that he becomes unmanagable.
Any ideas would be appreciated?
He also had his first bone last weekend and growled at my partner several times quite ferociously when we tried to take it from him. We perservered, and took it and gave it back several times, taking him by the scruff of the neck if he showed his teeth too much, and by the end of it he would not give it up willingly, but he wouldnt growl when we took it from him.
Sorry I realise this is long, it is just playing on my mind and I thought if anyone would know it would be all of you!

 

OK, first things first - you shouldn't scruff your dog to take a bone off him - that will only make his reactivity worse. He growls because he's afraid you're going to take his prized possession from him. You're just proving him right, so it's not going to help that behaviour. You should also never stop a dog from growling at you - a growl is a warning that you're doing something he doesn't like. If you take away his ability to growl, he may feel he has to escalate to the next level without any warning - which would probably be a snap.

Leave him be with his bone. Give him peace and quiet. If it comes time when you have to take it from him, swap it for something equally good, or better (sounds like some chicken may be the way to go there).

Here's an article about resource guarding: http://www.thelabradorsite.com/how-to-stop-your-dog-growling-over-food/

 

As for the other thing, what impulse control exercises do you do with him? That's all this is. My Shadow gets very excitable around roast chicken - when I'm stripping a chicken carcass, he'll sit nicely outside the kitchen, but he whines and will occasionally let out a frustrated bark. He just gets ignored for this and gets a little treat when he's quiet. You simply need to ensure he never gets rewarded for the boisterous behaviour. So, for example, you could put a little bit in his bowl and wait for him to sit. If he jumps up, put the bowl down on the kitchen work surface, turn your back and ignore him. The second he calms down, pick the bowl up again and move it towards him. If he gets over-excited again, immediately put the bowl down.
He will soon realise that the bowl only moves towards him when he's being calm, and moves away from him when he's bouncing.

 

Snowbunny - Ok excellent thanks so much for the advice,
I will start on this tonight.
The breeder was the one who told us to scruff him with the bones, she said they need to understand it is yours, and to relinquish it easily. She has been breeding labs for 20 years so we just trusted her. By the third time we took the bone he didnt seem overly worried, and sat quietly, as I think he also knew he was going to get it back? The trouble is we cant actually get near him to offer something else - roast chicken or anything, as he runs with it, I have a friend whos dog has done this from a young age and now the dog will bite the owner if he tries to take a bone from him as he was never taught otherwise.
But everything you have said makes sense, and I will have a read of that article

 

This is very common when using punishment for resource guarding. The article explains why.

Here's another that may help your understanding of dominance-based methods: http://www.thelabradorsite.com/is-your-labrador-in-charge/

It was thought for a long time that you had to "show the dog who's boss" and that any undesirable behaviour from the dog was interpreted as him trying to be in charge, "the alpha" and all the rest of that stuff you may have heard. This is now known to be completely untrue and modern, science-based methods are far better employed, give better results and are much safer to use - especially so in a household with children. Sadly, many people, even those who have been involved with dogs for a long time, haven't kept up with the changes and still believe in the old, very flawed, dominance model.

 

Ok thanks for that, we definitely dont believe in the dominance model, or use that over him, just in this instance is seems almost logic that if he does something like that you growl. He is definitely understanding no now, especially if said in a deep growly voice, and he will stop what he is doing most of the time, so we just employed that with the bone. I will do some reading though and 100% give your method a go.
I have just cooked a couple of pieces of bacon and put them on the bench in a container, when he stops barking and biting and jumping I give him a piece...he seems to be catching on, but the excitement is still getting the better of him every now and then. he is just a puppy though

 

We've been having a few conversations about the use of "no" recently . Here's a link to my opinion and the conversation that followed: http://thelabradorforum.com/threads/dexters-first-gundog-training-session.13778/page-2#post-208887

 

What about teaching him a stay on a mat or some such before being released to eat his meal? I don't need to do it now but my boy was required to sit on a mat by the back door before he was told DISH, which meant he could eat. Talk about drool on that mat.

You can do impulse control training if you feed by hand too. ONe way we did it was by asking for WATCH Me and pup only got the treat if he made eye contact. You start with nano second eye contact and I'd start with something less desirable than bacon.

Is he really getting as much bacon as it sounds like?

 

You've got some good advice here, just want to chime in with the resource guarding. Derinitely agree that taking the bone away will only make the growling worse. Swapping for a treat is the way to go, and if he runs away with the bone when you approach with the treat then find the distance that will allow him to stay in the spot with his bone and toss him a treat from there. Do that a few times, then try it with getting a little closer. Keep doing this gradually over a fee days and soon you will be able to sit beside him while he chews his bone without him being stressed at your nearness. I wouldn't try to take the bone away, the idea is that he is comfortable with you there. Then you start to work on doing things like touching the dog, or petting him, while he chews the bone. Always treating him with a tasty bit when he doesn't react, if he does react, go back to the step where he didn't react and don't move quite so close, or try touching his hindquarters and not his head or whatever. Again the goal is not to take the bone away, but to have him happy with you there. Generally I agree with Rachel that the very best thing is to leave him in peace while he eats but as you say you are pregnant, it is good to try to,get your pooch comfortable with people in his space as little children don't always follow instructions to "leave the dog alone!" and if even if yours does, he/she might well have friends who don't.
I have done this successfully with my dog using clicker training, which gives the dog a precise signal when he does the right thing. If you haven't started clicker training I would encourage you to do so, it is a great way to train.

 

Haha, no he gets half a piece of bacon maybe once a week - the idea was initially to use it for training but he gets too excited.
I will try what you have all suggested, and I plan to start clicker training this week.
I understand that a dog should be left to eat, but I have lived with a few dogs and they have all been trust worthy around food. I don't think leaving them alone is the answer at all as you definitely cant trust strangers or children to do this, and what if there is a situation where you need to take their food away.

 

Also, while I am asking questions, any advice on how to train a dog to stay outside. I.e. when we put Huxley outside from being inside, he obviously does not want to go. this used to be easy when he was little as we would either distract him with a toy, throw it, and he would run off and play, or just pop him out. But now he has started turning and hurtling straight back in, with a lot of force, and today when I tried to push him back out he bit me pretty hard. It gave me a big fright. I guess this is normal...but it didnt feel normal. What would you say about that?

 

I agree a dog should be able to eat with life going on around him but that is not achieved by taking his food, bones etc away from him. It is achieved by adding a few extra bits of kibble to his bowl as you pass, swapping bones for treats ensuring that you being around when he eats is a good experience.
Personally I can't think of any good reason why I would take away a dog's dinner bowl after I had given it. I would be rather annoyed if someone came along and just took my dinner away from me after giving it to me and I 'm sure you would be as well.

 

Why would you expect your young puppy to be happy to be outside, presumably alone, away from his family by himself? Puppies left alone frequently get into mischief and eat things that are harmful. Although no behavioural expert it sounds to me that when you used force to push him back out he responded by using force 'the bite' to stop you .

 

I quite often pop little tasty extra's into Hattie & Charlie's food bowls and they don't have any issues around their food or treats. It's best to start doing this now whilst he is still a young puppy especially as you are going to have a little one soon Every day when I give them their chew they sit looking at me, I give them the chew and I stroke their heads, again no problems at all even with my rescue boy, they see me as the giver of all things yummy

 

I do the same as @charlie and add stuff when they're eating all the time. Now, when I approach as they're eating, they greet me with big waggy tails. Yesterday, for example, I gave them a massive frozen sardine each for their lunch, they ran to their beds (where they eat lunch) and then I walked up to them and gave them each a raw turkey leg. That's a huge reinforcer for me approaching them when eating, obviously!

But, for now, I'd be very careful to walk through the steps in the first article and make sure you get to the point where he is happy with you being in any sort of proximity throwing treats, rather than trying to progress too quickly. Taking it slowly will mean you end up with a dog that can be entirely trusted around his food. Rushing ahead might make things worse, and you just can't risk that with a baby on the way.

 

I agree with Rosemary that he clearly doesn't want to be alone outside - why would he? Dogs are sociable animals in general.

I'm really concerned about all your comments about using physical measures with him, however insignificant they may seem to you. You really shouldn't be pushing your dog to get him to do something he doesn't want. It's just asking for trouble.

I would seriously advise you find a positive reinforcement behaviourist to come to your house and work through these issues with you. They will be able to show you the best way of approaching the problems so you can live together harmoniously. It sounds at the moment as if you're on a bit of a course to self destruction - this should be fixable, but you should do it sooner rather than later, especially with your baby coming.

 

My thought is: Dog intelligence has been variably said to be that of a two year old child, maybe a four year old. It's the dog owner's responsibility to protect the dog from strangers and children and vice versa. Not the creature with the intelligence of a two year old. Most Labs eat so quickly it might take a minute or so to watch and protect, make sure they get to eat in peace.

I agree the others, Most Labs want to be house dogs. Consider it flattery that they'd rather be with you than outside alone where they can eat stuff they shouldn't and be poisoned or obstructed, dig, dig under fences and run away, bark their fool heads off and anger the neighbours.

Pushing is a game to many dogs. When they play with each other there can be pushing and biting that can look really savage. I wonder if that played a factor? I do find it concerning that you attempted to push him out a door, maybe he was frightened of you?

Have you read the books and articles suggested? Can you take a puppy class and some obedience classes together? Your whole family sounds like it could benefit. Classes don't just teach YOU how to train a puppy they tend to help forge a bond between you and pup as well.

 

Hello. I am a first time puppy owner to Jessie and have two small children of 4 & 6 and I am currently working through some of the same issues and worries as you! She is completely food mad and jumps up at the table to steal the kid's food, which when it started really worried me and involved lots of me yelling 'No, Jessie' at her constantly (because our old school breeder also said we have to be firm with her). I have now chilled out about it and am seeing training her out of it as a process, rather than a quick fix! Some good advice above. We are doing the impulse training. Clicking for paws on the floor. Sitting for a short while whilst the kids eat etc. But ultimately she is little and all of this will take time, so she often ends up with a kong in her crate when they are eating or I am preparing food.

I hadn't really thought about food guarding. She has her meals in the crate. which the kids are trained to see as her space. We also have very frequent visits from other children and I explain the rules about her crate and about being around her and then very carefully watch them with her.

As for going outside, if I really want her to go out to try for a wee and she doesn't want to go (like last thing at night) I go with her (shrieking "get busy" in a high pitched voice, which I am sure our neighbours love!!). If I need her to be out of the way for other reasons I crate her and lure in with food (usually a kong), which she sometimes tries to resist, but then greed always gets the better of her and she will go in!

As I mentioned earlier, Jessie was also from an old school gundog breeder and trainer, so I am also learning which advice to take and which to leave. To be honestly I massively respect him as he clearly adored his dogs, and it wasn't that many years ago that his methods would have been standard. But his harsher methods weren't really right for us. Horses for courses I guess.

We have also started puppy classes with a lovely trainer using positive techniques, which have helped me massively to understand her behaviour and respond to it. Definitely go with the clicker training as this is working brilliantly for us!

Also, this forum and website it amazing, I have learnt so much! Training her is as much as a process for me as it is for her and I am loving learning something new.

I hope this helps. Good luck! Oh and congrats on the pregnancy. Seeing how much my kids love being with the dog, make all the training and bad behaviour worth it! Your little one will love growing up with your dog. x

 

In all of these behaviours that are causing you problems, the thing to do is to think about what is the alternate behaviour you can train instead when that situation arises. This was a light bulb idea for me when I first joined the forum and started learning all this stuff. So if a dog is jumping up to grab your kids food from the table, you can yell, shove the dog away, lock them in a different room, ban them to the crate, etc etc which are varying responses that people might have, never mind the more physically punishing responses. But really, why not train he dog to sit quietly on their mat while you eat? Wouldn't that be the ideal? So then you break it down into small steps and start to train this. It is possible, and although it can take patience and time, you will get there. If your dog jumps up at visitors when they come, train them to sit quietly. Anyhow once you get this mindset you will find your relationship with your dog takes a turn for the better, and you find yourselves as partners rather than adversaries.

 

Because children are unpredictable, and in a perfect world the child would never be around the dog when it was eating, but as well all know we dont live in a perfect world, we have friends with children, we take him to the beach and the park, and I dont want to worry all the time that a wee kid is going to try and move his bowl, or move his food, and he is going to get bitten. It doesnt make me a bad dog owner. I am just trying to ensure that everyone is safe and happy.
As for him being put outside, of course he doesnt like it, he never wants to go outside, but unfortunately he needs to go out to wee, and sometimes go out for ten minutes whilst I prepare a meal. Its not the end of the world and all I was asking for was simple tips on how to make this easier for him and me.
The condescending tone of this thread really bothers me sometimes.