Well that was a mixed bag training lesson. Firstly we walked through heath land and did some dropping the line hiding and recalling Charlie which was great. We also did Charlie has to follow us without calling again great, infact he was quite panicked not to be able to see us. We then proceeded to the Solent mud flats Charlie in top form legged it after Seagulls he waded through very deep mud after it and we were very concerned he was going to get trapped but thankfully he didn't. Now this is where David and I were extremely confused as Annette insisted David just kept peeping on his whistle in no particular pattern :-\ We explained that we have worked hard constantly for 18 months on a 2 peep recall and never repeating it if he doesn't come back but she disagreed and said that if he's not listening we keep peeping in that kind of situation, I must admit we are feeling pretty dispondent about this and hope this hasn't messed up what we have worked so hard to train . Anyway he did come back absolutely covered head to toe in brown slime and he stank ;D Annette was really glad to see for herself him behave this way as she could see what the issue is - BIRDS. We walked on a little and of course there were lots of Seagulls but we just stood and let his adrenaline levels come down whilst we chatted, Annette dropped a tennis ball infront of him to break his focus on the birds and that worked really well We talked about retrieving and we explained how hard we have worked to get his retrieving desire up but she said we mustn't get him over excited with a ball as we don't want him to chase and it should not be used this way ???. We got a ball out and he was off all fours with excitement but no that's not what she wants to see We have again worked so hard with retrieving to the extent Charlie now retrieves on his walk, tracks and even in the woods finding his ball under leaves etc. and this keeps him interested in us. Annette advised to only use the ball when we really need to get his focus. We are confused Stop Whistle, I have been to eager to get distance so I need to go back to basics and proof the instant stop at my side on a lead in various places before distance, David needs to practise too out and about on his walks, but she said that I had done a good job getting a good distance which will come in useful later on, so a half a tick : Annette feels she would like us to join her beginners Gundog Class next Saturday as he needs to learn control, a proper retrieve and to hand, stop whistle, work around birds etc. and this is possibly the way to go and we do understand. We got back to the car and really needed to clean Charlie so off we went to a pond threw the ball in and Charlie went in but we didn't know it was quite deep and he wouldn't get his ball, he came out and refused to go in again and proceeded to whine after his ball so I think we may well have put him off water now, pretty down about that too Annette commented that she had trained far worse dogs than Charlie I know we thought that was impossible too but there you go. I really just wanted to see what you all think as we are confused about today's lesson. Thank you xx
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT I am not surprised you are confused. Did Annette realise that you were not able to use the ball to get Charlie focused before? Does she know that it is only your work on building his retrieve desire that has enabled you to use the ball in this way? Is it perhaps that she is confident that you can maintain his desire now, whilst bringing down his excitement levels? Using the recall when the dog is clearly not responding is not something a trainer would normally recommend. But, it is possible, that she she was genuinely worried that she was about to drown your dog! In which case, I can understand her telling you to keep whistling in this exceptional circumstance, in the hopes that the dog will respond and a disaster be averted.
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT I have felt similar with just about all the trainers I've been to - they all have their different ways. I've made up my mind not to worry too much about differences from what I've been told before. So long as she has a strategy, which you might like to ask her about, I think you have to trust in the trainer you are with. It does sound like maybe she didn't think letting Charlie off his lead to chase seagulls was one of her better decisions! Looking at a couple of threads in your post - maybe she thinks that teaching Charlie not to chase is key (eg she doesn't want him to chase tennis balls either).
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT [quote author=editor link=topic=5134.msg64567#msg64567 date=1396118384] I am not surprised you are confused. Did Annette realise that you were not able to use the ball to get Charlie focused before? Does she know that it is only your work on building his retrieve desire that has enabled you to use the ball in this way? [/quote] Pippa, Yes I did explain about how hard it has been to build up a retrieving desire. I feel that's maybe what she was trying to say. Annette was panicking as her 'colourful' language confirmed but to be fare to her we did give our permission to drop the line and she did want to see Charlie in a 'live' situation and the Seagulls were just too much of a temptation [size=8pt](Edited to fix quotes for you, Helen )[/size]
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5134.msg64572#msg64572 date=1396120584] I have felt similar with just about all the trainers I've been to - they all have their different ways. I've made up my mind not to worry too much about differences from what I've been told before. So long as she has a strategy, which you might like to ask her about, I think you have to trust in the trainer you are with. This is one of the reasons we haven't been back for training too many different ways. Her strategy is to do the gundog training and get Charlie to learn some control. It does sound like maybe she didn't think letting Charlie off his lead to chase seagulls was one of her better decisions! He was still on the training line but I think on the positive side Annette did see what the issue is and yes it's b….y birds any birds : Looking at a couple of threads in your post - maybe she thinks that teaching Charlie not to chase is key (eg she doesn't want him to chase tennis balls either). [/quote] Maybe, but chasing a ball keeps him with us which is what we have wanted and worked for as it really didn't come easy to Charlie as a total non retriever. It just feels to us that what we have worked hard for now isn't necessarily what we should now be doing I don't know :-\
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT Well, I don't know either - but it's never the end game to have a dog chasing anything without be commanded to, is it? So maybe you've done such a good job on building Charlie's excitement for the ball that it's time for him to either only chase when you need him to (eg to chase the tennis ball to stop him chasing something else) or become "steady" and only chase anything (including tennis balls) on command? Guessing, of course, might be all wrong.
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT Makes sense Julie and maybe that's why Annette wants us to join the beginners gundog class, steadiness is needed but I have been too worried about putting him off retrieving. If you are maybe wrong I have no chance :
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT Helen I've done exactly this with my hunt-driven Tarka. Once the excitement to retrieve a ball or dummy was there, then using that excitement to stay with me and allow me and the ball to be the centre of her world to the exclusion of all else was very important. At this point of training I also stopped her from simply chasing the ball as I didn't want her to chase anything without my direction. So lots of excitement, drop the ball and heel away then heel back to collect, general steadiness training and reward by throwing the ball up for her to catch. Once she was retrieving to hand and could be steady to a thrown ball, then I reintroduced chasing the ball but as controlled retrieving. She now can play fetch on a relaxed walk as well as do formal retrieving and still has the excitement and interest and focus on me. As far as the repeated whistling is concerned, I bet Charlie was so focused on those seagulls he didn't even notice - I was always convinced that when Tarka was in full chase the red mist was down and she heard nothing - so I think no harm will come to your recall from this blip.
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT Lochan, thank you so now I need to train steadiness and use the ball to my advantage with this? I am still doing memory retrieves with a dummy so will this help with his control? Charlie sometimes retrieves to hand so I need to get on top of that too, any tips on that one? I totally agree with you about the red mist and I really hope no harm has been done with the whistle but we will find out tomorrow and on this occasion I really hope he went 'deaf' David and I really did not agree with her on that point and David is still pretty cross about it What are your thoughts on us joining the gundog class?
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT I can understand why your confused but I don't think you've done anything wrong in getting Charlie's retrieve desire so high. I agree with the others perhaps Annette now thinks its time to reign his excitement in a bit so he's working for you so to speak. Maintain the desire by making him think a bit rather than dash after it. Lochans suggestion sounds like a good one. I know you've been worried about putting him off retrieving but you've got his desire up once if it should get a knock back you know how to do it again. I bet it won't now hes hooked. The fact Annette panicked when Charlie raced off after seagulls kind of proves these trainers don't always get it right and can make the same mistakes as us. I don't think a one off incident will affect your whistle and I do think having a ball with you to control Charlie's attention is still a good idea even if she's told you not to let him chase.
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT I am sure no damage is done with the permanent whistle call when Charlie was chasing seagulls, he probably didn't even hear it as when dogs are chasing they tend to close their ears I had a colliex dog who would run a few yards from me, then run back to me, did this her whole life EXCEPT the one time we took her to Scotland and to a beach, she chased the seagulls nearly all day, but it never spoiled or changed her behaviour once home again. If David sticks to the 'only do the recall whistle once' Charlie will do as he did before. I think it would be very valuable to go to the gundog classes, you will keep Charlie's interest in retrieving but teach him some control. My young Lab is ball mad and he leaps around me which I think is a good thing as I am his interest. I do memory retrieves, throw the ball to the left and another to the right, choose which one I want him to fetch and so many other interesting ways for the dog. I think you and David will enjoy it as well.
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT I would definitely join the gundog class - great place to get some help with retrieving to hand. Something I would say is that you have worked so hard to get Charlie interested in the ball that I would take steadiness training VERY slowly and cautiously as the last thing you want to do is crush his enthusiasm. Whatever you do keep it fun for both of you! It is so difficult to give really practical advice without seeing him, but at this stage of Tarka' s training I set up a permanent blind in my garden and taught her that if I sent her off to get something there would always be a tennis ball reward there. This had the effect of removing the chase of a moving object from her retrieving whilst teaching her that it was great fun and rewarding to listen to me and go where I said rather than simply hunting for herself. I'm sure Pippa has done an article on permanent blinds but in my usual technical incompetence I wouldn't be able to link you to it even if I could find it, sorry...
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT Permanent Blinds Part 1 Permanent Blinds Part 2 Permanent Blinds Part 3
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT [quote author=Oberon link=topic=5134.msg64624#msg64624 date=1396129176] Permanent Blinds Part 1 Permanent Blinds Part 2 Permanent Blinds Part 3 [/quote] Thank you (slinks off red-faced...)
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT Do I have to learn a marked retrieve before a blind? But I suppose it's alright to setup a permanent blind anyway :-\ Oh lord this is where it all appears to be difficult and sends me off into a world that I had no intention of wondering into Thank you Rachael oh technical one Sorry for all the questions :-[
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT Helen,you might find with the right trainer you really enjoy Gundog work...It will give you a framework to focus the behaviours you've encouraged on a positive way.i know it's never been something you've wanted to pursue but I think if you find you enjoy it then you and David would be really good with Charlie because you are certainly prepared to out the time and effort in.id have had a bit of a freak when it looked like he was going to get stuck......
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT Hi Helen. Ive done the same with hunt mad Brodick as you have been doing and its being paying off in bucket loads recently. Once i got him interested in a proper ball i let him chase it happily for a good few months before i even thought of building in control. Ive never had to teach him to retrieve, he was a natural from being tiny and has always brought the ball back right to my feet and now doing to hand. But we spent a good long time just having brilliant fun me booting the ball and him chasing it and bringing it back. He loved it and in his head being with mum has become more fun than chasing squirrels in the park.Over the past month or so ive built in steadiness in similar ways to lochan and Stacia. I have two balls and sometimes he chases on my throw, sometimes sits and waits till i release, sometimes i throw two balls and direct him to one then the other ( very basic though i just point and say That One Brods) i work with him and cuillin having to honour each others retrieves tc etc and he loves it!.we are also working with our Guilty Pleasure the Boomer Ball too and am working on his self control around that ( cant stop him barking in excitement yet!). For me its been about establishing that mum gives me things that are fun too so i dont need to chase squirrels and once chasing balls with mum was firmly established then chasing balls with mum but with control is being seen as fun too...the other day cuillin smelt something really exciting across the park and they both took off at speed. I managed to halt brods in his tracks with a quick brodick wait, and i could never have done this a few months ago....gun dog class might be fun as it will give you different fun ways to build in the control bit?
Re: Hamble Hounds Training - Lesson 2 REPORT Helen I know you don't want to do gundog stuff so just call permanent blinds a game of hunt the tennis ball. Make sure it's not done formally for Charlie ie don't worry about sitting him up and sending him out on a straight line, stopping on whistle and then hunting for it with you clad entirely in green tweed. Initially just hide the ball in the same place each time, have him with you and excitedly shriek "go find the ball Charlie" whilst following Pippa's guidelines on how to teach him to do this. You'll have fun, I promise!
