Hi, further to Barbara sending me the link to the ADPT Dog Trainers in Hampshire, I decided to contact Annette Bowcott at Hamble Hounds. I have just spoken to her and she feels she can help us improve things with Charlie. Her feeling is that the relationship between our whole family and Charlie is where to start. She however doesn't feel we have done Charlie any favours keeping him on lead and a training line for so long, she said she would only advise that method for 3 months or so and that this has only lead to his frustration and desire to leg it She thinks she can help with his recall by building on our relationship first and then letting him off lead and adding distractions and teaching him to choose to come back to us. Frankly I'm nervous as we all know what has happened in the past . She was really nice and felt that things were probably not as bad as we think I asked her had she dealt with hard hunting dogs before - "Oh YES all the time" I asked her what methods she uses - "it's all about the relationship" - that made me feel good :'( Annette felt from my email that we have done a lot of work with obedience, paddock work etc. but this isn't as important as the 'relationship' but she said it was good that we have been whistle recall and stop training - yeah we did something right : I am going to chat to David tonight and arrange to go and see her (£80.00 for 2 hours ) but she did feel the distance is quite far and that we would need to meet up once a week but it will be worth it, I hope. She did offer to try and find a trainer that she knows a little nearer to home to help. What do you think as obviously I am pretty nervous about trainers? Thank you xxxx
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training Helen, I think it sounds very positive. I mean, you don't have a lot to lose at this point, and it sounds like she has some experience with exactly the issues you are dealing with. Once she sees you and Charlie together she will have a better picture of the "relationship" which WE all know is very positive and loving - and with that foundation and some expert help who knows where that could take you?? Hopefully, fingers crossed, to lovely long walks with Charlie and Hattie together with TWO dogs who will recall and TWO people who can enjoy walks TOGETHER!! Can't wait to see how this progresses....keep us posted!!
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training I think it's a really,really positive move to make Helen.Im delighted to read this post.I love that the trainer is talking about relationships between you all....that makes me think she will be quite intuitive to how you relate to Charlie and be sensitive to how anxious the absconding or the potential for absconding has made you . You probably feel you've never met a dog like Charlie so he must be the only dog like this but it will be reassuring to be around someone who has ...as she says 'all the time' It's not cheap but I think it will be money well spent.Did you discuss the consequences that would be used if Charlie doesn't respond to a training instruction? that's something I would have to be very clear on before I proceeded....I am a particularly big wimp as you know :-[ If you go ahead I'll be really interested to read about your sessions,you do need help Helen,Charlie is a lovely,much loved dog but it's time now to get a respectful professional opinion to create a successful ,cohesive family environment that meets everybody's ( 2 legged and 4 legged ;D) needs. I hope Annette is the lady to help you,good luck xxx
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training It all sounds positive Helen , especially as Annette has dealt with absconding dogs before , it seems the way to go as too often , we cant do right for doing wrong and it takes someone outside the box to see our mistakes , am so pleased and hope that you can all begin to move forward , heaven knows you deserve it and its not for want of effort xx
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training I would have wanted to know more about what she means with "building a relationship" and how she is going to go about improving the relationship between you and Charlie. How would she deal with Charlie off the lead and long line when he comes across a rabbit for example? That is a lot of money for 2 hours, which is too long to train on a one to one basis anyway in my mind. Sorry to be a bit sceptical.
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training I think it sounds good. I have never paid less than £40 an hour in the South East for a training lesson - so while not cheap, not out of line with what I've been paying. I wondered a bit about it being all about "the relationship" - well, yes, it is important to have a good relationship with your dog, it's never struck me as being the answer to an absconding labrador though. Still, really, it would have been a bit difficult for her to say how she would deal with Charlie, having not even met him yet. I'd definitely give it a chance. It's unlikely to be a magic wand (of course) but input from others is often worth its weight in gold.
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training I would definitely go for an initial visit and take it from there. I wouldn't commit until after your first meeting as at this stage you will know if you are happy with the way she will work with you
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training I think it sounds positive with a couple of caveats..... I agree with heidrun, two hours is a long time. We've done an hour 1-2-1 a couple of times and Riley and I have both been fried by the end and probably should have stopped before the hour is up. That's pretty focused gundog type training though so her plans for you may be less tiring. Is she suggesting two hours, once a week? I would want more facts about what she has done and what her plans for the two hours are. She should be able to describe the process even if she avoids using 'methods'. How does she assess your relationship, what will she ask you to do first? £40 an hour for private lessons is pretty typical round this way. Assuming she satisfies you about how she helps you with the relationship she needs to keep you and Charlie safe while she works on that, how will she do that? Enclosed paddock? Long line? etc This could definitely be wonderful but some follow up questions wouldn't go amiss
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training I agree with Julie in that £40 an hour is about right for this area. Training is often much cheaper as you go further West and North. I also agree that new input is always useful. I would be a little skeptical of the whole 'relationship' thing. It sounds a little vague. Having said that, I don't think you have anything much to lose, she may be a brilliant hands on trainer and just not great at explaining what she is doing over the phone. This might possibly be true if you had been keeping Charlie confined, but you have been making a lot of effort to provide him with exercise in the garden and out walking. Preventing a dog from 'rehearsing' chasing behaviours usually diminshes the dog's desire to engage in them. Typically, the more the dog chases, the more he wants to chase. It is a self perpetuating behaviour because it is intrinsically rewarding to the dog. But, it is always good to listen to new opinions and she might well have something valuable to add. Like Heidrun, I'd be wanting to ask her how she wants you to ensure Charlie's safety when out walking without the line, bearing in mind his enthusiasm for chasing game. She probably wants the whole two hours so that she can take you for a good long walk somewhere safe, and see how Charlie behaves off lead. He will probably be a complete angel because he is in new territory which is a big inhibitor for most dogs. So don't hold back when you tell her what he is normally like.
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training Sounds very positive Helen and i agree with others its good to get a fresh opinion on things...however I'm intrigued by how she will establish the in and outs of your 'relationship' too, and what she sees as aspects of that which can impact on Charlie's hunting drive. Id also heartily agree with Pippa about the importance of preventing chasing - preventing B chasing squirrels in the park involved a long line for a whole lot longer than three months, he's off it now but he is showing no desire to chase anymore and im sure its because it was prevented for so long, as you have been doing with Charlie,, coupled with me getting him ball obsessed... Im not meaning to sound negative though, i think it will be great to get another opinion and to explore different methods, all dogs are different and what works for some wont work for others so it will be great to hear what she has to say
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training Go Helen, a new set of eyes and ears is always valuable when training, no doubt at all and I really hope this is beneficial. I would also be asking some questions about the "building on your relationship" aspect. In terms of my relationship with my dogs I feel there are very few options. 1. Master and slave, old-fashioned dominance theory, often involving punishment. Not my cup of tea at all, and I would have needed some form of teleporting system to catch Tarka when she chased deer. 2. Team leader in a happy pack of me and the dogs, them recalling as they know the team leader is worth listening to as she usually has some good fun on offer (playing fetch, food, retrieving, swimming etc) and is a reward-based system. The one I choose. 3. No real structure, everyone (dogs and humans) doing what they like and the dogs sort of viewing the humans as a transport system to take them to an off lead paradise where they hunt/chase/fight to their hearts content. Dangerous with an absconder. You have been working very hard on option 2, and I hope she is thinking of some version of this. Perhaps she may hit upon that magic thing that you've been searching for, the one thing in Charlie's life that is better than chasing and hunting and if so, I would pay the money up front no questions asked! One thing I would beware of is that my experience with Tarka and her former life as an absconder was she would do it absolutely anywhere there was game, whether it was her first time in that area or not. I still shudder about a particularly torrid episode at the start of her absconding when she chased a red deer stag in the Cairngorms...anyway, my advice would be to be very careful if she wants to let Charlie off lead or line completely, even in a new area unless it is very well fenced in which case there may be little game and he will exhibit his inner Angel.....Do keep us up-to-date and the very best of luck.
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training Thanks everyone for your thoughts I appreciate it. The initial 1 1/2 - 2 hour visit is for Annette to meet us, our family and Charlie to discuss him and to make a plan for us to work on at home and if we like her we will meet up once a week to train but not for 2 hours. There will be no off lead on this visit which will be at her training grounds, if anyone would like to look at the website it is:- www.hamblehounds.com They are members of APDT. All her training methods are TOTALLY positive and she was very cross at any trainer using negative training. I explained thoroughly and honestly about Charlie's absconding behaviour describing him returning to us and collapsing she didn't sound surprised at all. I know she can't give us a quick fix as it's just not possible but if she can improve our relationship with Charlie and show us how to show him that we are much more rewarding than chasing anything that moves we would be absolutely over the moon . Lochan, I know exactly what you mean, in the past Charlie has had no reservations in taking off in a new location either, so I will definitely be aware of that The price is pretty standard or even cheaper than one lady I contacted in Basingstoke who wanted £55.00 per hour for village hall training David and I feel we really have no option but to get some help as this situation is untenable, exhausting and soul destroying and not what we want for Charlie as a young dog or our family. We already feel so bad for not making enough progress for him and probably have made matters a whole lot worse due to our lack of understanding and stumbling our way through what we find a minefield of training, so we need to do this for Charlie. I feel now I didn't ask enough questions but I always feel like that : I guess we should just make the appointment and assess Annette as she will us. Again many thanks. xxx
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training I think you should go for it - you sound like you got a positive feeling from her, and to be honest, that's probably the best way to judge. Good luck. (I looked at the website when you first mentioned it, and was impressed).
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training Really sounds worth a shot. You can make a judgement about whether or not you think it's worth a second session. By 'relationship'...I wonder if that was just shorthand for 'the way you interact with and respond to your dog's behaviour'. A lot of people who have dog problems do not realise that their own behaviour is a massive part of the equation and my guess is that she sees those people all the time. Emphasising the 'relationship' side might just be her way of introducing the concept of it not simply being all about the dog I know that you understand that perfectly, Helen, but many people don't get it.
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training Rachael, you hit the nail on the head I'm going to contact her tomorrow to set up a visit. Thanks x
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training Coming late to this... but go for it. As you say, your current position is not helping any of you, human or canine! I hope her experience really benefits you. As to her being that bit further away, I'd always say that finding someone you feel you can work with trumps distance travelled. Good luck, Clare
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training Great The two hours makes more sense now as it will involve a lot of observation. I really hope this helps you and Charlie!! Go for it
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training I've put some courses up Helen, in the events section, that might interest you. I haven't been to any of their seminars myself, but David Ryan and John Rogerson are both well thought of. I don't know whether there are any places left, but if not, both these guys tour and give talks every year, so its worth enquiring where the next one will be. Good luck with your first session at Hamble Hounds.
Re: HAMBLE HOUNDS Training only just seen this helen,....i am glad you are going for it, up north we pay 40 pound an hour, so seems to be the average fee, cant wait to hear how it goes
