Re: Harness or collar? If a dog isn't pulling, there is nothing wrong with a slip lead. . They hang loose and are probably very, very, comfy.
Re: Harness or collar? I have been using a GenCon for the last 5 months, and it has done it's job in that it has given me control over an excitable large puppy when the training disappears out of her head. Molly obviously hates it and her hatred is growing. Every time she sees a patch of grass (and there are lots of wide grass verges around here) the head goes down, the bum goes up in the air and she scrambles along trying to rub the GenCon off in a most inelegant manner. I have persisted, as I do with all her training, but I now feel that I should look for an alternative. I am currently trying a conventional flat collar and lead, but am not happy. Whilst I totally agree that training is paramount, at nine months she cannot be expected not to loose focus and she can tow me around for a few paces before I get my heels dug in. I am thinking of getting a harness. What I don't understand is how they work. For centuries mankind has harnessed horses and dogs to carriages and sledges to transfer, literally harness, their power. So what is the advantage of a harness in controlling your dog and presumably lessening its power? I liked the Turid Ragaas clip, taught me a lot about harnesses, mostly that the old one I had in the cupboard would not be comfortable for my dog. Couldn't help noticing that fitting of the harness was demonstrated on a nice calm cooperative dog not the whirling dervish of a dog many of us know and love
Re: Harness or collar? I have a whirling dervish of a dog. ;D If you walk forward with a strong dog pulling on a back fastening harness, they do a great job of treating you like a cart. If you stand still, the more power they put into a lunge forward, the more their front feet lift up and lose traction. That's what happens with the harness Charlie wears, anyway. If you allowed yourself to be pulled, you'll be pulled very effectively. So I just stop my feet. It's the same thing though - you have to train, or they keep pulling. My knees aren't the best and I hated when Charlie pulled. It was much easier on me when he was on a harness though. And a billion times less stressful all round.
Re: Harness or collar? I found on a collar or slip lead I was wary of really stopping Riley, on a harness I just do the same as Julie - develop my concrete feet and absolutely refuse to move, Riley would just lift his front end in the air if he tried to keep going. I did have an advantage in that we only used it when he was less than a year and I'm pretty big but I use it now on my in-laws dog who's 35kgs and plenty strong
Re: Harness or collar? That's why a front fastening harness is best - any pulling is not rewarded as it pulls the dog in and towards you, not out and away from you
Re: Harness or collar? [quote author=Boogie link=topic=6452.msg88534#msg88534 date=1402845363] That's why a front fastening harness is best - any pulling is not rewarded as it pulls the dog in and towards you, not out and away from you [/quote] I agree with Mags, but you still have to train 'NO pulling' even with a front fastening harness. I have to walk Charlie on a harness as I am 5 ft 4" and 7 stone ringing wet! and I need to feel I have control which I do on a front fastening one not a back fastening which just feels the same as a flat collar to me.
Re: Harness or collar? [quote author=Boogie link=topic=6452.msg88534#msg88534 date=1402845363] That's why a front fastening harness is best - any pulling is not rewarded as it pulls the dog in and towards you, not out and away from you [/quote] I can see why you say that, and a lot of people swear by them, I know, and for some people they might be best. They are not my choice though. I don't think they are best for me for two reasons. I actively don't want a device that stops my dog pulling. The reason is that I want my training to be 100% stand alone, and not dependent on a mechanical means for assistance. So in future I can walk my dog on any means of attachment I choose, I just have to train once, and then I'm not dependent on a certain type of attachment. And the second reason is that I don't want the dog pulled in towards me. I'm ultra careful about how Charlie walks, and his gait, and I don't want it altered in anyway. I do own some front fastening harnesses, they did change how Charlie walked, and one of them even carried a warning that the dog should be walked on both the left and the right to prevent problems from developing. I didn't like the sound of that.
Re: Harness or collar? I can see your reasons Julie. A harness is just a training aid and all dogs still require training for no pulling whether it's a front or back fastening one, there is no substitute for consistent training, but it does help just as some people swear by Halit's etc. it just gives a bit of extra control whilst training. My Charlie can now be walked on a slack flat collar and lead most of the time, but we have trained him to do so, I just sometimes like the extra control because he is big and I am small ;D
Re: Harness or collar? Yes, I can definitely see that and why it's the best choice for some. It does seem important to do what you did though, and also train for a flat collar. I think Angela said she found herself very stuck when Dex's front fastening harness rubbed him, and she suddenly had to switch. She retrained for a back fastening harness and collar, I think I remember her saying. It will be interesting to see whether, if Molly is switched away from a gencon, the training that was done while wearing it transfers. Pippa's article on these aids says not, they don't teach the dog anything (I've never used a head collar myself though). http://www.thelabradorsite.com/walking-your-labrador-on-a-loose-lead/
Re: Harness or collar? Thank you all for your input. As always with The Labrador Site, lots of differing opinions, but everyone agrees to differ. It is a pleasure to be a member of a community that can disagree nicely. Here comes the Good News. I decided to give the old harness a try. Kibble in hand I slipped it over her snout. No reaction. Gently guided her paw through the harness. Still no reaction. Checked to see if I had got the right dog Well we've got it on we'll just do a little trip down the alley (behind the houses about three hundred yards long). Trotted along as good as gold. Decided to turn it into a short 30 minute walk. She just trotted by my side as good as gold. Of course, there was the usual the odd dive into the hedgerow for something interesting, she is after all only a 9 month old pup. But I was very pleased. It would seem all those months of standing stock still when she pulled (with the rain trickling down my neck), the feeding kibble as we walked along, the gently guiding her back to my side have paid off and my dog DOES know how to walk properly. Won't claim that she's perfect all the time (well you'd all know I was lying) but I'm really chuffed and feel I am getting somewhere with her. Of course when we got home she totally blew it. My son came to visit and all she wanted to do was bounce all over him, so it was back on the house line. Must crack on with the 'not jumping up'.
Re: Harness or collar? That's fabulous news! Well done Molly! Keep it up, don't give in and soon you'll be perfect!
Re: Harness or collar? Well done Molly I changed to the dual harness - front and back fastenings- for a few weeks......what a difference We are now often using it just fastened on the back unless in a very busy area. We started teaching flat collar last week (on lead only walks due to Harley being in season) and she has really improved I do put it down to using the dual harness for a while
Re: Harness or collar? Great to here you've seen such improvement ...your walks wil be so much more enjoyable. She probably thought she deserved a good bounce on your son as a reward for her brilliant walking ;D
Re: Harness or collar? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=6452.msg87978#msg87978 date=1402731605] [quote author=Mike link=topic=6452.msg87945#msg87945 date=1402721590] Slip Lead worked best for us as Jake was a real puller When he got to distracted and started pulling we made him sit then did a figure of eight , Which involves making the loop around his neck bigger then rotate to create an 8 then place over his snout this then works like a halti and takes seconds . With some harnesses they can get all the body weight into it and drag you down the street making it really difficult . Mike [/quote] Just to say, not everyone would agree with this - i don't like slip leads on dogs that pull. I know lots of people think differently though. A slip lead on a dog that pulls, acts like a choke device (unless is has two stoppers). I also think it's a myth that a back fastening harness encourages a dog to pull or makes it difficult to control a dog if it does. I find it very easy to stand still (and relaxed, as I know my dog is not coming to any harm) if my dog pulls on his back fastening harness. Anyway, whatever you use, the key is training. [/quote] Using figure of eight with a slip lead means Jake does not choke himself , With Jake as soon as the figure of eight is used he walks like a model dog and instantly stops pulling . It takes seconds to do and undo which was vital for us after spending a small fortune of different collars and a harness which he has only worn a few times . Ultimately walking to heel training with lots of route variation and socialisation has been the key to get Jake to stop pulling as he always pulled when seeing other dogs as he always wanted to go and say hello and was very difficult to restrain at times . Mike Edited to fix up quote marks (Rachael)
Re: Harness or collar? I'm a slip lead person The figure of eight works a treat and works better with a braided type as they are a bit softer - with or without the double stop. More diligence required with the single stop although I find it focuses you on the training rather than relying on the physical kit you're using. Reason for starting off with the slip lead is this is what we will be using in the field so on balance, better to start with what you're going to finish with - a bit more effort perhaps in the beginning but worth it for the end result. Well worth getting someone knowledgable in the correct use of a slip lead to demonstrate for you so you avoid any possible mishaps, e.g. inadvertent choking.
