Help & Advice sought over hipscores and COI of parents of litter

Discussion in 'Labrador Puppies' started by lord charles, Jan 17, 2020.

  1. lord charles

    lord charles Registered Users

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    Good Evening, this is my first post on the forum which I have been lurking on for some considerable time, I chose to join this particular Forum as it seems to have some very switched on people contributing.
    I am in somewhat of a state of confusion over a prospective litter I have come accross as to whether the combined Hip scores and Coi of the parents present a risky future for any pups.

    The Hip score of the Sire who is a Highly popular stud dog is 3/7 which is obviously uneven but is it acceptable ? , the Elbow score is Zero and all eye checks etc come back clear.
    The Hip score of the Dam is 0/0 so no issues there - also the Elbow score is Zero and all eye checks etc are clear.

    The Coi of this mating comes out at 8% on mate select, which is 1.5% higher than the breed average.

    I spoke to another breeder who said that if this is from an experienced breeder this usually OK as they know the blood lines intimatley. and will want to keep some of the traits in the new litter.

    I wonder what the consensus of opinion is to whether this mating will produce a lower hip score and reduce risk of hip problems given that the Sires EBV for Elbows is -33 and his Hips are +56- combined with the Dams EBV Elbow score is -41 and her Hips are a -78.

    I have averaged the two parents EBV scores and the result is EBV-37 Elbows and Hip EVB -22 (I dont know enough about this to know whether this is a feasable projection of the outcome for the litter or not)


    Just to add to my confusion here is an article from the institute ocf Canine Biology which states the following.

    "Hip dysplasia has a heritability of about 20%, which means that 80% of the variation among dogs is influenced by the "environment" (which includes anything that is NOT genetic) - nutrition of the mother, how much exercise the puppy got, what substrate is in the kennel - ANYTHING that could influence the quality of the hip. So a dog might not have great hips, but if it has a low EBV for hips, that tells you that it has good GENES for hips.

    Any help /Guidance would be greatly appreciated (God Im Confused).
    Thanks in Advance
     
  2. J.D

    J.D Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Hi
    There are a few breeders on here that will be able to answer re hip scores. My labs were excellent scores but I was told by the breeder that a lot is still down to being careful with exercise/stairs etc during the first year at least. So far so good. He is now 2.
    With the COI I hadn’t even heard about that until at 18 months he developed a high grade Mast Cell Tumour which at that age is likely to be genetic. Someone mentioned COI and I looked it up. It is 8.8. I will never prove that is the issue but I believe it to be highly likely. His parents share a great grandfather. Given that Labradors are prone to cancer I would give it careful consideration if I ever got another puppy. Others on here may come back and say it isn’t that high. My dogs breeder felt the other scores were so fantastic it didn’t matter. We are no longer communicating!
     
  3. lord charles

    lord charles Registered Users

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    So very sorry to hear about your Dog, I have been through the heartache with my last two dogs, and recently lost my last Golden who was 11.5 yrs old -on 19th December,, he had never shown any signs until he suddenly collapsed -by then it was too late (hemangiosarcoma)
    The previous dog had a brain tumour and we had to let him go at 9yrs old, so I am paranoid about getting it wrong for a third time.
    Part of me says I should forget about owning another - but I love them so much and our house is empty, and frankly -so is my Life.

    Was your Dogs COI 0f 8.8 The score of both parents mating - eg the coifficient of the litter your pupy was from ?
    If so then it proves to me that these labs need to be as far away genetically from each other as possible.

    The litter I am interested in is 8% COI which is still 1.5% higher than the breed average BUt conversley the outcome of this mating is showing to reduce the COI when compared to other relatives in the pedigrees, so its an attempt to clean up the gene pool with newer blood lines, (Dads lineage is from USA /Finland and he is a popular sire due to him winning many accolades in the circuit)
    Again though if everyone starts using this Sire as a stud -we are back in the same boat again in a few generations time.- though obviously breeders are looking to introduce new blood lines into their pedigree, the problem is when literally hundreds of pups are sired by this same Dog.

    Every time I put the numbers in on the KC Database looking at several prospective litters and screening the parents health scores - I seem to be unable to get really low scoring COI results on all but one occasion when the pups were all spoken for ( no wonder )

    I read an article from the Morris foundation in USA regarding a huge survey carried out on Golden Retrievers in USA and the results showed a big increase in Cancer, and a lowering of the life span of these dogs by about 2/3 years which was down to an ever decreasing gene pool.
    Different breed but in reality the same rules regarding genetics apply to all breeds of dogs
    The institute of canine biology gives the caveat regarding in - breeding Line breeding.
    The warning is this :
    So some experienced breeders may have a very good idea of what they will produce, but some have a fingers firmly crossed behing their backs approach when trying out some matings

    Labradors have a slightly better statistical prognosis with less incidence of cancers, but I think its becoming a lottery trying to find a dog with a good Health score -especially when you start to trawl through the pedigree health scores of the family tree.
    I have listened to the science behind the genetics and it makes sense - but there seems to be something of a trade off between breeders maintaining the looks and charecteristics, of the dogs at the risk of breeding to close.

    One biologists report I read said quite bluntly, Line Breeding is In -Breeding and thats where the problem lies.
    I would be happy to hear further points of both sides of the argument, but at the moment after reading your truly awful dilema, I am scared of getting caught out again for the third time- it truly has broken me emotionally and I am so very sorry to hear about your circumstances.
    Kind Regards to you and thank you for your valued input.
     
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  4. J.D

    J.D Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    So sorry you lost your last dog so suddenly. We had a black lab previously who died after a short illness at 12. I waited 6 months to get another and as you say the house was so empty without him. Toby has certainly filled that gap in many ways. He has been quite a handful and then the illness on top. However I love him to bits and am giving him the most fulfilled life I can.
    I looked up his COI on the kennel club website a year after we got him. The breeder said because all the other scores were great she didn’t think she could find a better match despite the COI scores. However she also said it was a friend’s dog so she didn’t look far! I chose a fox red lab to avoid making too many comparisons with my previous black lab however I fear that the gene pool may be too small and quite a few darker shades of yellow on here seem to have skin issues.
    Research leads me to believe labradors and retrievers are very prone to cancers but I love the breed and cannot imagine getting anything else.
    Are you looking at the Champdogs website for litters?
     
  5. lord charles

    lord charles Registered Users

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    Hi yes I am looking on champ dogs for litters, I got my last dog by phoning a breeder from champ dogs and she put me onto a litter.
    I have also looked at and responded to some adverts on Pets 4 homes , but encountered some very vague responses from several sellers who were not too keen on answering the questions I was asking for instannce when a breeder tells me that 25% COI is acceptable in Line Breeding I know there is some fundamentally flawed thinking behind this breeders ethos.
    I walked away from this particular litter as the breeder didnt even know the COI of the litter he was selling saying he thought it was about 19%..he obviously hadnt used mate select prior to breeding as the COI was 13% which according to the KC guidelines is grandfather and grand daughter mating when put into true perspective.
    Some sellers quoted KC registration - but when I asked for the KC names for mate select data base they stopped responding to me ??

    There are hundreds of people breeding dogs purely for the money aspect sadly whenever there is the perception and smell of easy money is in the Air -the Charlatan is never far behind.
    I have also spoken to a couple of breeders who were very helpful and one told me not to discount a pup from parents with 8% COI with a sire who had a 3/7 hip score, because the breeder (in now way related to the person giving me the advice) who owned the litter had fifty years experience and actually would know the pedigree family personally on the show circuit, something which gave me food for thought.

    My Dilema - should I trust the instincts of this long standing breeder, or follow my own more cautious approach and stick ridgidly to the scientific advice and the Algorithm of COI EBV ??

    You may already have read this article but I will post it -hopefully this is allowed as its not advertising but is an information link.
    http://kingsbrookvet.com/pet-health-articles/mast-cell-tumors-in-dogs/
    Best of luck
     
  6. J.D

    J.D Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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  7. J.D

    J.D Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Oh and when I took him to the vets for the first time he had an umbilical hernia and a floating rib. Both not an issue but both genetic I believe.
     
  8. lord charles

    lord charles Registered Users

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    Thanks for the link, as you say its a minefield out there, I have just read an article where the general consensus seems to be that if you pair a higher hip scoring sire with a zero scoring dam (which is what this matings numbers are ) then the hip score of the litter should be improved further.
    The sire is 3/7 and the Dam is 0/0 hip score , the point I am concerned about is the uneven hip score of the sire, and whether that is a risk along with an 8% coi.
    Given your story it seems that nothing is certain.
    Do you know what grade your dogs tumour is and how is the treatment going ?
     
  9. J.D

    J.D Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    I am hoping some of the gundog breeders/trainers on here will chip in with more in-depth knowledge than just my experience. By the sounds of gunfire near me they are probably all busy!
    Toby’s MCT was grade 3 Mitotic index 9/10 with no signs of spread. It was on his ear and at only 18 months he had to have his ear removed to get clean margins. He had an enlarged lymph node in his stomach which has since been put down to GI issues. I have resolved those by switching him to raw( although the oncologist didn’t want me to. I waited until his immune system was back up to scratch after his 8th chemo finished)
    He was staged again in Sept and all was good. We go back on Tuesday for another lot of scans/ needle aspirations of liver spleen and lymph nodes. It is all very thorough and thank goodness we have lifetime insurance cover (£12000 so far)
    You would not know anything was/is wrong. He behaves as a 2 year old lab should and is still very handsome. People on here are probably fed up of me talking about him but it is all consuming.
    90A47FC5-D22C-4393-8BF6-47F9E1548E9A.jpeg
     
  10. lord charles

    lord charles Registered Users

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    He is a lovely looking Dog, so glad he is coming along OK - incidentally the effects of chemo on Dogs is very slight in comparison to the effects it has on humans and they just seemingly breeze through the treatment in comparison to us Humans.
    When you go through a traumatic series of events like you have been through with your Dog, anyone reading your story should thank their lucky stars its not them !
    It was very fortunate that you had lifetime insurance for your Dog (I didnt know you could get it) I found with my insurers after the first few years the premiums got steeper - so once my Dog had transitioned the silly stage of being a young dog I kept the premiums in a seperate bank account and for 8 years we didnt have to touch the money - until the fateful day when he suddenly collapsed, and after a months fighting to get him right , up 3 times a night with him, I decided that there was no upside for my old boy and let him go as he went downhill again suddenly.

    Let us know how you get on with the latest tests, I wish you a happy outcome with my fingers crossed.
    Maybe some of the gundog breeders will throw some opinions in regarding the probability of crossing a 3/7 Hip score sire with a 0/0 hipscore DAM.
    Best of Luck with the next tests .
     
  11. J.D

    J.D Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    yes he had very few side affects other than upset stomach.
    Lifetime insurance in the sense they don’t stop covering an ailment after a year. No idea what the premiums will go up to in March.
    Don’t get me wrong there are a lot of supportive people on here I just feel I talk about too much!
    Off to cheer myself up watching 1917 lol !
     
  12. mandyb

    mandyb Registered Users

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    One way of getting a Lab with a very low COI is to find a working to show mating. That is what I did for my youngest Lab, his COI comes in at 0.2%. He's now 3yrs old and the healthiest dog I've had in years.

    Referring back to your original post, I would be very concerned with the Sire's EBV results, +56 for Hips sets alarm bells ringing for me, unless that's a mistake and it should be -56? A plus score means that there are some very bad hip scores within that dog's relatives.
     
  13. lord charles

    lord charles Registered Users

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    Thats what these forums are all about - and as Bob Hoskins said "Its Good to Talk " cheers !
     
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  14. lord charles

    lord charles Registered Users

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    Hi thanks for your reply and thats exactly what I was hesitating over, I am going to trawl back over the pedigree and see what I can find.
    I know this dogs a very popular sire ...over 50 matings as a stud, his hip score is an uneven 3/7 though thats not high and his 10 generation COI is 1.69 but the Dam was 19% Coi but with a perfect zero hip and elbow score It looks like the fact that the sire is big show winner hence all the stud matings with other show breeders, but I still have a nagging doubt about the sires hip potential.
    I can confirm th EBV of dad is +56 for hips while dam is - 78 EBV hips, I am assuming that the idea is the hip score should hopefully improve with this mating and I read that a fair hip score on a sire mated with an excellent hip score Dam should produce good hip scores- or is that just an urban myth amongst breeders ?? I agree about a FTC out cross with a show Dog - but they are seemingly very thin on the ground as it appears breeders dont want to risk losing the chunky looks of the show type dog.
    I am still digging through the family tree looking for clues (the information about this litters arrival came to me from a very prominent successful show breeder who directed me to a fellow long term breeder who has not advertised this litter anywhere to date)
     

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