Re: HELP!? RECALL Don't be in a rush. Keep C&Ting for check ins. Do it for hours, hundreds of hours. Keep playing the games, build them up outdoors. Keep at it, it takes a looong time....
Re: HELP!? RECALL If she likes sniffing around, you could try throwing treats for her to "find" - Maisie returns to me each time for me to throw another one, and she has to use her nose/eyes to sniff out a treat in the grass (usually just use a kibble actually). Switching up what you're doing might interest her a bit, and that's a fun game. Does she have a "wait" command at all? Hide and seek is a fun game to play to try to get their attention on you, especially if you're somewhere with a lot of trees or hiding spots. Give command "wait" (in a location where she can't see, such as behind a tree) then go off and hide (depending how long of a "wait" command you have, you might have to work up to hiding!) and then call out "okay, find me!" and she has to come find you to get a treat. Maisie finds this one exciting and it's hilarious to see her check the last place I hid and then look so confused and then excited when she finds the next place I'm in. She might also like if you play a recall game with a friend if someone ever walks with you - each of you goes to one end of a distance, and you call her back and forth between you using the recall word, treating each time. Maisie LOVES this game and often runs back and forth between us without being prompted - so to up the difficulty, I will call her while she's running (of her own volition, not when she's being called) at speed towards my recall partner and get her to turn around and run back to me. I think that is helpful to teach a recall while "mid-flight". Maybe do the recall game a couple times just in a "boring" way (calling back and forth) and then mix it up like that when you know she has the idea, so she knows whoever calls her will give her treats/a game/whatever you get for a recall. I've also experimented with me holding food so she can see it and having the recall partner recall her away. It's a nice way to add in some distractions/temptations and show her that obeying the recall word is the guaranteed way to get treats. And as Julie says, it takes time… and certain dogs will always be more attractive than others. Maisie and I played for a long time in the park where an adult calm dog was lying down by the playground and we were playing in the other end. A few times she started wandering over, so I recalled her, and when her attention kept going back there, we just went on an on-leash walk away from there. But then another dog came to the park, a big bouncy thing brimming with energy, and luckily I had leashed her already, as she was ready to BOLT off towards that dog…
Re: HELP!? RECALL [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10493.msg156600#msg156600 date=1429042200] Don't be in a rush. Keep C&Ting for check ins. Do it for hours, hundreds of hours. Keep playing the games, build them up outdoors. Keep at it, it takes a looong time.... [/quote] Hundreds of hours....ok, I get it, might start adding them up ;D
Re: HELP!? RECALL [quote author=maisiesmomma link=topic=10493.msg156641#msg156641 date=1429074495] If she likes sniffing around, you could try throwing treats for her to "find" - Maisie returns to me each time for me to throw another one, and she has to use her nose/eyes to sniff out a treat in the grass (usually just use a kibble actually). Switching up what you're doing might interest her a bit, and that's a fun game. Does she have a "wait" command at all? Hide and seek is a fun game to play to try to get their attention on you, especially if you're somewhere with a lot of trees or hiding spots. Give command "wait" (in a location where she can't see, such as behind a tree) then go off and hide (depending how long of a "wait" command you have, you might have to work up to hiding!) and then call out "okay, find me!" and she has to come find you to get a treat. Maisie finds this one exciting and it's hilarious to see her check the last place I hid and then look so confused and then excited when she finds the next place I'm in. She might also like if you play a recall game with a friend if someone ever walks with you - each of you goes to one end of a distance, and you call her back and forth between you using the recall word, treating each time. Maisie LOVES this game and often runs back and forth between us without being prompted - so to up the difficulty, I will call her while she's running (of her own volition, not when she's being called) at speed towards my recall partner and get her to turn around and run back to me. I think that is helpful to teach a recall while "mid-flight". Maybe do the recall game a couple times just in a "boring" way (calling back and forth) and then mix it up like that when you know she has the idea, so she knows whoever calls her will give her treats/a game/whatever you get for a recall. I've also experimented with me holding food so she can see it and having the recall partner recall her away. It's a nice way to add in some distractions/temptations and show her that obeying the recall word is the guaranteed way to get treats. And as Julie says, it takes time… and certain dogs will always be more attractive than others. Maisie and I played for a long time in the park where an adult calm dog was lying down by the playground and we were playing in the other end. A few times she started wandering over, so I recalled her, and when her attention kept going back there, we just went on an on-leash walk away from there. But then another dog came to the park, a big bouncy thing brimming with energy, and luckily I had leashed her already, as she was ready to BOLT off towards that dog… [/quote] Good idea re throwing treats I've never done that will try she knows sit / stay and will do up to a minute so far, but not taught a wait command, however we keep building it up yep will get friends to play recall games on our walks too thanks ;D
Re: HELP!? RECALL Throwing treats is a good game, although she's not always great at finding them ha ha even close by!! Another dog ran after us today and ignored the owners recall, several times.. Then I sent her back and a few minutes later Bella went after the dog too and back to the owner... As she's been so good recently , I gambled .....and blew my recall whistle , and she came bounding back for dried fish/sea biscuits , I was so impressed!!!! She is also checking in loads. It's paying off all this training I didn't push my luck again on the walk and let her play with a few other dogs then just went to get her her back, rather than using the recall again, slowly does it
Re: HELP!? RECALL Yeah, well done Bella and mum! 8) As you say, slowly does it! I love the advice that you need to make it easy for your dog to succeed. We are also doing amazingly well with our two-ball-Bonnie game. She is ignoring everything except the challenge of retrieving her ball(s). Her best mate Poppy came to to say hello and even then she wasn't distracted. I do wonder if it's the retrieving/ball that has her attention rather than me though; do you think that matters? We have 100% recall when she's playing this game and I'm continuing to proof with other scenarios (cautiously!), but my guess would be that if I didn't have a ball and something more exciting emerged, our recall would fail. Do you think that by playing this game continuously and using her recall (when she's likely to come back anyway) is helping to imprint it; or will we become over-reliant on the ball?
Re: HELP!? RECALL Are you still working on recall in situations where you don't have the ball game going on? I would only worry if you were only ever calling her when you had the ball game on… then she might associate it only with those times and not generalize it to whenever. But I suspect you are practicing recall in other situations as well as you're a very dedicated puppy mom! So I wouldn't worry too much. Another thing you could do is recall her at a different time, before the game occurs, and use the ball game as your REWARD for recalling, if she loves it that much. Then that might reinforce association between you and the ball AND recall but in a way where she's not already distracted by the ball. I wonder what it is about balls that retrievers love so much… I brought Maisie's tennis ball to the park today to throw instead of sticks because I don't want to let her run with sticks anymore, and she was so utterly delighted that instead of coming bak to me after retrieving, she ran around in big circles carrying the ball and then lay down to look at it… and eat grass.
Re: HELP!? RECALL [quote author=maisiesmomma link=topic=10493.msg158164#msg158164 date=1429653716] Are you still working on recall in situations where you don't have the ball game going on? I would only worry if you were only ever calling her when you had the ball game on… then she might associate it only with those times and not generalize it to whenever. But I suspect you are practicing recall in other situations as well as you're a very dedicated puppy mom! So I wouldn't worry too much. [/quote] Aw, thank you, what a lovely thing to say! I am, but probably not as much as I should, so good reminder! [quote author=maisiesmomma link=topic=10493.msg158164#msg158164 date=1429653716] Another thing you could do is recall her at a different time, before the game occurs, and use the ball game as your REWARD for recalling, if she loves it that much. Then that might reinforce association between you and the ball AND recall but in a way where she's not already distracted by the ball. [/quote] Yes, good plan! We'll do this. It is already saving me a fortune in treats as she doesn't want the treats because she just wants to get on with the game!!! [quote author=maisiesmomma link=topic=10493.msg158164#msg158164 date=1429653716] I wonder what it is about balls that retrievers love so much… I brought Maisie's tennis ball to the park today to throw instead of sticks because I don't want to let her run with sticks anymore, and she was so utterly delighted that instead of coming bak to me after retrieving, she ran around in big circles carrying the ball and then lay down to look at it… and eat grass. [/quote] Ohhhhh, too sweet!!! Yeah, we're giving up the sticks as well. Did you read Pippa's article? It's made me wary although Bonnie's still a fan : I love when I give B a chew and we've got guests and she has to parade round the room a few times just so everyone can see how lucky she is!
Yes, I have come across this - very much so. My own dog used to spit out treats when the distraction was just walking out the front door..... I read - with some bemusement - account of people who would say 'if kibble isn't enough, increase distance'. I was driven to higher and higher value food rewards and distance? Several miles was a bit impractical...... I still use incredibly high value food rewards in certain situations. Forget kibble, your starting point needs to be smelly sardines - I understand if even those aren't good enough. Seriously, I've tried Fois Gras and it hasn't been good enough... Forget praise - it's worthless to many dogs (later, when you have a good bond with your dog, social interaction and play can be valuable though). I could (and have on this forum) written pages and pages on the lengths I went to in order to get my dog's attention outside....in short, extremely high value games - luckily he is obsessed by retrieving and a game called whipit did it. These gave me something to build on. But I had to build on a tiny bit of attention, build on it, and build on it - it took months and months. It doesn't happen quickly, I'm afraid.... I recommend a book called "when pigs fly - training success with impossible dogs". I don't follow all the methods in this book now, I have changed and been influenced by other methods, but it's a great starting point. My dog is now 3 years old. A couple of days ago, I was walking with an acquaintance, and another dog rushed up to us and mugged my dog. I just clicked my tongue (my attention getting noise) and my dog moved to a heel position and looked at me, completely ignoring the other dog even though it was pawing at him. The person I was with said "wow, I'm getting a Labrador next time". I didn't say anything.... I don't tell you that story to boast, my dog is a natural hooligan, and has embarrassed me in endless situations, and will continue to do so on a regular basis. Just to let you know you can do it, even with a "when pigs fly" dog.
When Tara was younger, and first running off lead, I always let her run with some other young dogs, in the park, as she would always come back with the others (some were good at recall, and the rest followed). Now, unfortunately, Tara looks for her pals and, if she can't see any of them, she legs it over the park, looking, and ignores me totally. As a result, she is 100% on a lead (super long training lead on the park), but she just wants to go to play with any dog she sees now, even when road walking, and leaps about on the end of the lead if I try to walk her away. This is getting beyond a joke, but she is perfect when no other dogs are about. I know, at 15 months, she is still young, but I fear she will never stop "dog hunting". I have seen the "distracted dog" article, and will give it some serious reading - if only Tara could read it too!
I don't want to over egg the book "When Pigs Fly" - it was published in 2007, and many books published since contain better techniques, I think (in particular "Control Unleashed"). However, what the book does is drum home the following message - if you do not have your dog's attention, you have nothing. You are not at step 1 in terms of being able to train your dog. There are no excuses for not succeeding - whatever you think your difficulty is, the author of "When Pigs Fly" views this as no excuse whatsoever for not being able to train your dog. I found this refreshing and quite motivating. The basic “system” put forward is to put 90% of your effort into getting your “when pigs fly” dog into a frame of mind to learn, and 10% of effort into actually teaching the behaviours you want to see. And no beating about the bush regarding how hard you have to try – all the time – to get and keep your dog’s attention. There is a big emphasis on play, and a lot of things that I agree with (such as not confusing a “closed down” dog with an obedient dog) which I again found refreshing.
I don't think I have a "When Pugs Fly" dog, but I'll be giving it a read anyway. It sounds interesting
After reading this thread I know I have taken the not playing with the ball and chucker to far. 1- I stopped as was told it could do him a lot of damage to keep chasing a ball, not by someone on the forum but I did do a post about it and got great advice. I now only train/play this in a controlled environment and steadying him or when no other dogs are about and I can throw the ball into long grass. 2- I also thought he was becoming obsessed with the ball and chucker and that it was this that controlled him and not me, so I was trying to desensitise him to them. After reading through this thread, I believe I have taken away my biggest asset to working with Dexter by stopping it so suddenly and no longer rewarding behaviour I'm training with a throw of the ball. I try to get him interested in tug but it really doesn't float his boat yet, maybe this will come in time, maybe it will not. His game of choice is a ball so perhaps this is what I need to nurture. I am going to start again C&T every time he gives me attention but also give him some ball and chucker time again or ball without chucker time. I can continue to use this as he only got to play it with me when he was focused on me. If other dogs joined in, he didn't mind and would still remain focused on me and ignore the world around him. But he also had started to ignore me and go and join in other dogs games if I wasn't playing with him, that's why I needed to try harder with his self control. I've gone from one extreme to the other. His retrieving is his passion and I'm wondering if now that I've taken it away, in places that I need it most as his reward, I'm setting him up to fail and pushing him over his excitement threashhold. He was so good before and after yesterday, I feel that I've lost him . I can still work on his self control but it would be much easier and quicker if I play his fun game with him whilst doing this and not stop it all together like I've done. I was given great advice but think I went overboard with it, in my actions and need to use his natural enthusiasm to my advantage. I'll also take very high smelly rewards to throw for him to find not just his ball. This thread has put a lot of the advice I was given into perspective. It just shows that by asking one type of question you can get help for a different one
I don't have a pigs fly dog but found the book really interesting. It's not a long book and I downloaded it on my kindle and read through it easily (I'm a slow reader ). I'm now reading a hard copy of control unleashed which will take me longer. The box game took Dexter 4 days to get through and when I changed the box for a different one, I had to start from scratch but he got it in 5 to 10 minutes
I think you'll find it a bit basic, @snowbunny, and having met your two, you really don't have a When Pigs Fly dog! Still, for broader interest, you might enjoy it. @Dexter - you do not want your dog to be out of control around any reward. And you never want to use it as a bribe. So long as those things are ok, there is no need not to use balls as a reward - really high value rewards are distractions, and you should train for control around balls and ball chuckers (not least because other people have them, and having a dog that runs over and mugs other people carrying ball chuckers is a real pain in the bottom). Repetitive, intense exercise of any form isn't a sensible thing to do - I see someone people spend an entire walk flinging a tennis ball from a ball chucker so the dog does hundreds of fetches, slamming to a stop (sometimes on unsuitable surfaces). In my view this is terrible for joints. I'm sure you are not doing that though!
@JulieT, I definitely don't use it as a bribe and he never knew when I was going to use the ball or both or something different. Definitely working on his self control and won't be doing lots of repetitive intense exercise. I was in danger of falling into this trap by doing the same as I see others doing. Luckily I realised that wouldn't be good for Dexter and after being made aware of the dangers, I just stopped all together. I don't want to use it all the time but do need the value of this high reward to be back in the reward pot as a jackpot.
