Hi all im still utterly confused by hip scoring! some say hips are scored 0-106 and others 0-56. On the main website it says the mean lab average is 12. Now does that mean a 6/6 or a 12/12. For example if i was to buy a puppy and its parents were 8/8 scoring is this above or below average and what would the score be? thanks in advance just very confusing
In the UK and Australia the system that is used provides a separate score for each hip. The maximum score for each hip joint is 53 (that'd be the worst possible hip score). Both hips together can have a maximum combined total of 106. Usually, though, the scores are expressed for each hip separately, as two a pair of two numbers, like 4:6. 4:6 would mean 4 for the left hip joint and 6 for the right hip joint. If you see a single number expressed that would be a combined total eg 'the breed average is 12' means that on average dogs in that breed have a combined total of 12. If it's a specific dog's scores being discussed, instead of a breed average, you would definitely want to know what each separate hip scores so you'd want to see the scores represented as a pair of two numbers. In other countries different scoring systems may be used... Where do you live?
You asked about what 8/8 (or 8:8) means as an example. That means 8 for each hip separately with a combined total of 16. The combined total is over the breed average (said to be 12) so you'd walk away from that breeder.
I wouldn't buy a puppy where one parent had a hip score of 7/7 - it's not really, really terrible, but it's above the average of 12. I'd be looking for way, way lower than that because it's easily available. It's not difficult to find breeders offering parents with 0/0 hips these days. I'd also be looking for 0/0 elbows, and I'd be very influenced by the EBV results for both hips and elbows for the parents. These can be found here: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/ebv/Default.aspx These are probably more important than the individual scores of the parents (although I'd still want those to be a low as possible).
Ok, I'll use a picture I have already: cr by julieandcharlie julieandcharlie, on Flickr The score in the second column gives the results for this dog - he has 0/0 hips, and 0 elbows. So as good as you can get on individual scores. The charts are the results taken from all the known results for dogs in his pedigree, and all the known results of his siblings and offspring. So this give you an indication of the how likely a dog with this breeding is to have problems. Let's look at the result for hips. Zero is the breed average. If the black dot on this chart was at zero, the likelihood of problems would be the same as the breed average. For this dog though, the result is much, much lower than average at about -90. That means the chances of a problem are much lower than the breed average. The 'tightness' of the black dot indicates how confident you can be in that result. The confidence is 94%. So you can be very confident that the likelihood of a dog from these lines having hips problems is much lower than the breed average.
I think this would be - 14 for elbows with a 27 percent confidence, and - 15 for hips with a 35% confidence. Those aren't great results. They are not massively better than average, and the confidence that those results are right isn't very high. If you look at the graph, does the shading on the black dot extend to zero or even into the red?
Well done. Those are not good results in my view from the point of view of choosing parents of a puppy (but of course they could be much worse). See the black shading extends right into the higher risk area, in the red? You can't be very confident that these results are better than breed average.
thanks for all the help it certainly sounds like everyone is advising me to walk away. Its so sad because other than that it all seemed perfect
Is this an actual dog then? A parent of a prospective puppy? That is sad, particularly if you have your heart set on a particular puppy. The thing is, there are no guarantees. You could find parents with much better results, and still have problems. But, if you read the experiences of the people on the forum with dogs with hip or elbow dysplasia, you really wouldn't want to go through that - much as those dogs are loved and as happy as they can be, it is a really, really harrowing and financially difficult thing to have to deal with. So, give yourself the very best chance, when choosing a puppy, that it won't happen to you. Very best of luck with it.
Yea it was a puppy we were meant to be getting but I appreciate everyone's opinions. It would be heartbreaking loosing a dog at a really early age. Trouble is because we both work full time the minute we mention that to breeders they just decide we arent suitable even though we have pre arranged puppy daycare and friends and family to help out. Its just making finding the right dog so hard.
My girl has ED despite her patents having 0:0 elbow scores and below average hip scores. Mu girl was unlucky as the only one of 10 puppies to be affected and a subsequent litter of 12 puppies have shown no elbow ir hip problems so far. I would always go for a pup with patents with the lowest possible scores even if that meant waiting (I waited nearly a year for my girl).
That is tough. We chose our girl because the timing was right for holidays. We didn't use a recognised breeder, and hadn't even heard of hip scores (pre-forum) Our Lilly has severe bilateral HD although has not had surgery as she is well adapted, although I do sometimes wonder........ Wouldn't swap her for the world, but I would want to make a balanced reasoned decision knowing all the facts next time. It is a case of balancing risks and weighing up the pros and cons. We did have a member a year or so ago who had two pups from the same litter, and if I recall both of them had BOTH HD and ED. I think it was just all too much for the owner and I think their circumstances changed and they were eventually rehomed (although I may be corrected on that). Surgery and health problems in a dog puts a massive hole in your life and work schedules. It is your decision, there is a risk to everything you do, and its about how much risk you can tolerate as well as how you might be able to manage the consequences - time wise, finance wise, and emotionally. Wish you luck x PS JulieT - I think this is a good thread to explain the Scores and confidence intervals - I know you have done it before, but this one worked well for me. Thanks.
It might be the case, and you'd have to ask the breeder, that the EBVs are because there are not many results available for the dog in question. It could possibly be the case that the results are based only on the results of that individual dog - where no results are available, zero, the breed average is assumed. To me, that wouldn't matter, in that those results still don't give me any confidence that I am buying a dog with the best possible chance of excellent hips and elbows, which would be what I was aiming for in finding a puppy. I thought I would mention it though.
