Having discovered in another thread that we have quite a fed Fox Red owners here is it true they get darker as they get older? I loved the idea of a red puppy and travelled a long way for Rusty but was quite surprised how light he was when we picked him up. (I'd only seen pics and video before we got him it was too far to do the trip twice) the breeders (who have a good reputation) tell me he'll get darker as he gets older but is this likely to be true? He is now 6 months and doesn't show any signs of being any different yet. Both his parents are a lovely rich red but he is more of a dark gold.
Re: How red is red? Hi Carole Jill will probably be able to give you a better answer, but I dont think my two girls have darkened a great deal since they were six months old or so. Though subtle changes in your own dogs tend to be hard to spot so I may be wrong. It is difficult to judge from photos as they vary so much depending on when and where they are taken. Pippa
Re: How red is red? Thanks Pippa, I know what you mean about photos - I took lots yesterday to mark him being 6 months old and when the sun comes out he looks much more red, the shots in the shade are more accurate to what I see.
Re: How red is red? Do you know over the years this debate seems to have rumbled on and I've decided that Red means whatever you want it to mean! There is no doubt that they do darken and I would say that the true colour does not come through until around two years of age. Also if you have your dog or bitch castrated or spayed it will have a significant effect on the fox red colour (or the lighter undercoat seems to show through more). But I get people turn up here to meet the dogs who point at Spice and call her Fox Red now she is as yellow as yellow is and there is no way she is red, but they insist on calling her red. Hence my comment above, your yellow may well be fox red to someone else!! I do think if you keep mating fox red to fox red (whatever the genetics are of that) that the colour dilutes and you have to use yellow carrying fox red, or black carrying fox red to get the really dark fox red colour back again. Something that really shows in the litter I have here at the moment. Both bitch and dog are very yellow but have fox red at the back of them on both sides, and I have three fox red bitches here that are probably the darkest I have ever bred. I'm not sure that I actually answered your question, but that's my experience so far!
Re: How red is red? Interesting topic! Does anyone here know how the actual genetic inheritance of red (as opposed to yellow) works? I understand that black always dominates... Sam
Re: How red is red? I'm not entirely sure what you mean Sam - black only dominates if either sire or dam are dominant black in which case you will only ever get black puppies! If they are black carrying yellow it doesn't.
Re: How red is red? Here is a link to the genetics of Fox Red Labradors : http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm However, labradors obviously don't read it because experience has shown that it can only be used as a broad base for what goes on. Actual breeding experience shows that knowing pedigrees and the dogs at the back of the sire and dam gives you a much better idea of what you will get in the shades of yellow department, and I would just remind everyone that Fox Red is just that a shade of yellow.
Re: How red is red? Thanks Ettinsmoor That makes sense now (I think!) - I was trying to oversimplify it in my head. So (for those who are interested but shorter on time then me!) I think we can summarise as: gene E/e determines whether the dog is black/brown (EE, Ee) or red/yellow (ee) gene B/b determines whether a 'black/brown' dog is black (BB, Bb) or brown (bb) gene C/various sub-c's determine whether a 'red/yellow' dog looks red (C*) or yellow and various other genes affect distribution and patterning of colour. (If you are not comfortable with the idea of autosomal inheritance, take a look at Ettinsmoor's link for an explanation of this!) Two questions, for anyone who knows. 1) if red colour is accounted for by a specific gene, and not a combination of multigenic inheritance effects, why do the KC not count it as a colour in its own right? 2) if, as I think the article says, red (C) dominates yellow (c^ch) then why are there more yellow labs around than red ones? (Or are there?!) Perhaps I have misunderstood this bit? Sam.
Re: How red is red? Perhaps the three main colours were decided before the genetics were understood? And/or because the difference in shades of yellow/red are too subtle to make a clear distinction. It is interesting how the fashion has changed with regard to the prefered shade of yellow. When I was a child most labs were a darkish yellow, golden retrievers were very dark indeed. Then during the 60s and 70s the demand was for paler and paler dogs. Now we have swung back the other way and dark is in demand again.
Re: How red is red? I had my first Fox Red when living in Buckinghamshire and there were very few to be seen. It was really interesting to find when moving up here to Norfolk that there are far more Fox Reds than the lighter shades and on looking through the pedigrees of these dogs it seems to me that the popularity of the lighter shades didn't really reach Norfolk and they have very much retained the old dark working lines. In fact I had a run in a Field Trial in Norfolk the winter before last and when we got on the beaters truck to be driven to the first drive and looked around every single dog was dark yellow/fox red except one black labrador. Granted there were actually two dark golden retrievers in there, but there was not a single pale yellow and that would have been about 14 dogs in all.
Re: How red is red? Hi Jill When it comes to choosing puppies, do you find your buyers are strongly drawn to the darker pups, or do you find people are not that fussy about colour? Just wondering, now that there are quite a few darker red dogs about, if the fashion for darker dogs is starting to 'die down'. Pippa
Re: How red is red? That's an interesting question Pippa. I could probably sell more dark pups than I would be able to breed in my lifetime, only doing it on a hobby basis as I do, but is that because I am known for my dark pups or more likely known for my health tested dark pups? So I get more dark pup specific people approaching me. I do find that with my mixed yellow shades litters that the puppy people will either be drawn to the dark ones or be drawn to the light ones if that makes sense - rather than saying that any colour will do.
