Hi everyone! I will be getting a new pup soon and it will be my first time! Very excited! I'm trying to prepare as much in advance as poss and learn about training methods etc... Pippa's book is great and this site is FABULOUS! I do have one important question... I know that to train effectively you should ignore bad behaviour and praise the good BUT what if the dog does something that I can't just ignore and need to stop straight away? What if he has a proper go at my cats? What if, god forbid, in the future he accidentally runs into the road or is too aggressive with another dog? I am obviously planning so that these things will never arise in the first place i.e. safe space for both dogs and cats, on lead around other dogs etc, in a safe pen when I have to leave him for a bit, and will start training from the outset. BUT if he does ever do something that could be dangerous to himself or to other animals, what is the best way to act so that it will stop the problem instantly AND make him realise that he shouldn't do it again? I just don't want to react in a way that makes him 'Oh wow this got her attention so I'll do it again!' Any tips greatly appreciated! Thanks Sally
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations Very exciting!!! It's not really the case that bad behaviour should be ignored. Rather, any reward for bad behaviour should be removed. So, if the pup jumps up to get near your face, remove your face by turning away. The jumping up will no longer deliver a reward for the pup, so the connection between the behaviour (jumping) and the lovely consequence that keeps it alive (getting near the face) is broken, or 'extinguished'. So, the bad behaviour is not punished as such, but neither is it ignored - the reward or payoff is simply removed from the equation so the behaviour just becomes pointless for the dog. Often bad behaviour is self-rewarding, which means it is inherently fun or nice or stress-relieving for the dog to do (like running after sheep or birds or the cat). In those cases it's about planning and prevention and training. A proactive way to approach potential bad behaviour is to train an alternative behaviour that is better from your perspective. If you don't want your dog to jump on people, train them to sit for a treat as soon as people approach them. They can't jump if they're sitting. What we see as bad behaviour always makes sense from the dog's perspective. There is something the dog is getting out of it that makes it worthwhile for the dog. To alter behaviour we need to try to work out what the dog is getting out of the behaviour, and think of a way to break that connection and/or make an alternative behaviour more likely and more worthwhile for the dog. However sometimes things just happen and you might need to physically get your dog out of a situation. If my dog jumped out onto the road I'd pull him back using the lead. Then I'd work on my loose lead walking, heelwork or sitting at the kerb. I'm sure you'll be just fine as it sounds like you're thinking ahead and have the right approach (prevention and training).
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations Tatze was once with my husband when she pulled backwards out of her collar near a very busy road. I asked him what he did, he said 'I instinctively grabbed her by the scruff and didn't let her go 'till her collar and lead were back on.' Good reactions (and phew!) I carry a tin of 'pet corrector', not for my dogs but in case they are attacked. It happened once, a Staffie got hold of Tatze by the neck when she was a pup, and it wouldn't let go. I sprayed it in the face and it let go and ran off. Tatze once found a poisoned rat and pranced around with it - she swapped it for a tripe stick and I put it straight in a poo bag (phew again!) I had a very scary moment when Tatze ran up to a flock of sheep - the farm is next to my brother's and the farmer relishes shooting any dog which gets in with his sheep, my brother saw it happen once :'( I literally screamed at her in a terrible panic - thankfully it shocked her so much she came back. I have never walked that way since. I haven't had any emergencies with Gypsy yet - touch lots of wood!
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations [quote author=Boogie link=topic=9400.msg135156#msg135156 date=1420544038] I had a very scary moment when Tatze ran up to a flock of sheep - the farm is next to my brother's and the farmer relishes shooting any dog which gets in with his sheep, my brother saw it happen once :'( I literally screamed at her in a terrible panic - thankfully it shocked her so much she came back. I have never walked that way since. [/quote] Oh golly, that would have been absolutely terrifying! I can guarantee one thing - if anyone shot a dog of mine, it would not end well for him. I shudder at the thought. I've socialised mine with sheep, but I won't truly know how they are with them until the spring when they're back out from their sheds.
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=9400.msg135159#msg135159 date=1420545904] [quote author=Boogie link=topic=9400.msg135156#msg135156 date=1420544038] Oh golly, that would have been absolutely terrifying! I can guarantee one thing - if anyone shot a dog of mine, it would not end well for him. I shudder at the thought. I've socialised mine with sheep, but I won't truly know how they are with them until the spring when they're back out from their sheds. [/quote] They are perfectly within the law over here to do just that Tatze sees sheep every day and simply wants to play - but of course the sheep don't see it that way! I keep her on the lead in the sheepy bit, of course. She had gone under a fence to this blokes field - never again!
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations I have a very loud and stern 'oi' that I have practiced over the years of working in the kennels - we had training from the resident behaviourists on how to break up a fight between dogs and the first thing they recommend is to shout a loud 'oi' as this is often enough of a distraction to snap them out of it. When they're really going at it, it needs to be one of those that hurts your throat, but just a loud and stern one is usually enough to snap Penny out of anything dangerous. It's more of a distraction noise than a punishment though and she always gets treats and praise from coming away etc.
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations There are lots of strategies for creating an emergency recall or magic word.... and different things work in different situations. Around the house we use a string of rather shrill "no, no, no" to both catch her attention and divert her from whatever she was doing. We don't usually use "no" in any other context with Bella, it's not a punishment command or anything...it's a "stop what you're doing and come back" response. We also have a "leave it" command. Anytime she picks up something she shouldn't have we use "leave it". When she is prowling after a cat we use "leave it". When she is precariously close to stumbling down the stairs in an unfamiliar place (my friends house) I use "no, no, no" and she turns right around and comes back. When she is heading down the hallway without supervision - "no, no, no" brings her back. When she is outside and heading off in a direction that is not safe (towards the road, towards the electric fence, into the deep woods) right now, if she is close, the "no, no, no" gets her attention and heading back towards me. Now...we are also in the early stages of "total recall", so soon the outside "no, no, no" will be a whistle recall...but for now it works. Several other board members use a "magic word" too...there has been lots of discussion on how to create and use a magic word - which is ideally to recall in an emergency situation.
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations Oh golly, that would have been absolutely terrifying! I can guarantee one thing - if anyone shot a dog of mine, it would not end well for him. I shudder at the thought. I've socialised mine with sheep, but I won't truly know how they are with them until the spring when they're back out from their sheds. [/quote] Hi snowbunny, I'm interested to know how you socialised your dog with sheep? I live on a farm and there are sheep here. I get on well with the farmer but I know the sheep come first if a dog gets in with them. As my pup is lab x collie, with the father being a working sheepdog, there might well be a strong instinct to herd. Thanks everyone for all your advice and tips, very grateful. I will do as much as poss to prevent anything bad happening but also develop an emergency recall as well as working on my 'oi' noises! One of the farmers here suggested developing a hand signal for 'stop and stay', he says it works well with his and is effective when you don't want your dog to run back to you for any reason i.e. traffic/tractors/sheep. I suppose it's just a massive learning process isn't it and no matter how much you read/ask for advice you'll never be fully prepared for the real event. It's so exciting to think that me and my pup will be able to work together to work all this out, and work what works best for the both of us. Is it weird to be daydreaming about it ALL DAY?!?! Haha! Thanks everyone x
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations [quote author=Sally C link=topic=9400.msg135228#msg135228 date=1420567248] Hi snowbunny, I'm interested to know how you socialised your dog with sheep? I live on a farm and there are sheep here. I get on well with the farmer but I know the sheep come first if a dog gets in with them. As my pup is lab x collie, with the father being a working sheepdog, there might well be a strong instinct to herd. [/quote] I live in a farming community so when Willow was little, she got to see loads of sheep from the comfort of our arms (before she was allowed down). We went to local farming fayres to see them penned, then when they were being driven down the road, we'd take her out to see them. She was no more than bored. I can't help with the herding instinct, sadly, but working on good heel work and recall from an early age would be of great benefit, I'm sure. With those genetics, I'm sure your pup will be very eager to learn!
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations Thanks snowbunny, great advice - will definitely take him down to see the sheep in his carrier, and the fayre is such a great idea! Am going to order Pippa's total recall book too as I've found her puppy book so helpful. Going on up on Saturday morning, so excited, will post pics soon!
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations raises an interesting question and one I've always struggled with in terms of positive re-enforcement only, how do you effectively and consistently show a consequence to "bad" behaviour? you can have a magic word which helps (although sometimes in dangerous situations your words fail) but I find that it doesn't stop the initial behaviour so they still do the unwanted behaviour but stop when you say no (or in my case aghh aghh ). In the case of desired behaviour (i.e. they get a treat) they know the association and it encourages them to do that behaviour but I don't find that the magic word discourages behaviour from starting (unless it just takes longer to program out the unwanted behaviour??). Also you can do the time-outs but that doesn't really work if you're out on a walk because by the time you get home the dog has no idea what they're getting a time out for. Essentially I struggle with in terms of correcting unwanted behaviour, if there's not always a consequence to bad behaviour how do you effectively communicate to your dog that it is unwanted because not getting a treat isn't a consequence it's the day to day. Note: i'm not advocating punishment but in positive only training I do think it's one of the hardest things to grasp and implement effectively.
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations Leaving aside the truly dangerous situation, and all your cues have failed (so if "no!" works you have to ask yourself why "no!" is stronger than all of your trained cues), in which case you do what you have to do to get hold of your dog... If you have ambitions to be a positive only / force free trainer, and if the dog makes a mistake, you do the least reinforcing thing. The thing least likely to reinforce the mistake. That's often nothing. And by reinforcing the correct behaviour, many times, in the future the dog will be more likely to adopt the correct behaviour and not repeat the mistake because the correct behaviour is more rewarding. This does mean you have to prevent "self rewarding" where you can. Don't jump to the conclusion that it's a good thing to impose a punishment (that's what corrections are, punishments, no matter how mild you consider them) for a mistake because there needs to be a bad consequence without considering all the downsides to doing that - in my view these include a dog that is less confident, less able to learn, less likely to try new things, with a weaker relationship with its handler.
Re: How to deal with dangerous situations I agree 100% JulieT It's not easy for us humans. We descended from apes so our reaction to any situation tends to involve talk 'chatter chatter chatter' is natural to apes, good situations or bad! Canines, of course use body language 99% of the time - and that's what we have to learn. When Gypsy says 'woof' it's so natural for me to say 'what's the matter?' but, of course, that reinforces the 'woof' - it is harder when relaxing as our natural way is to give eye contact and to talk! When it comes to real, dangerous emergencies I will use whatever works - it's pretty impossible to plan for such things. But 'everyday' emergencies (like I get with Tatze eating leads and collars!) I train 'leave it' and 'no' in pretty much the same way = don't touch it and if you don't touch it a better treat is here for you. If you do I will remove the thing you shouldn't have quickly before it's swallowed! We have to correct guide dogs from sniffing on lead walks and 'no' is the command. It is beginning to work with Gypsy
