How to find a good breeder with our timescales for a puppy

Oh so sorry you feel that way. It's just it seemed to me that it was rather a central question to the original post, and not just an aside at all. In that the OP said:

And you said:

Well that's not at all in line with what I know so far, and indeed the breeders of my show line dogs would have been delighted to have bred a 'fox red' and one of them has done so very recently. So I was interested, since it's such a 'thing' I've heard very recently that fox red is a working line colour. I'm genuinely interested to discover whether that is true and you are indeed right. And I would be happy to know that for interest.

What are the working lines that are the source of this ‘deep red’? Do you know what they are so I can look them up?

I think the show line that is the source of the ‘fox red’, in recent times at least, is Wynfaul Tobasco back to Poolstead and Sandylands dogs with quite a few champions subsequently. What is it in working line dogs?

 

Hi Julie, are you familiar with Gilly Nichols and her Bedgebrook line? She has had some lovely dark dogs - including FT Ch Tasco Rouble. Some of the Flashmount dogs have been dark - Flashmount Socrates (dark yellow)- is behind my own red dog. Then there's Jill Parsons at Ettinsmoor. She has had some very dark dogs, and could be a good source of information on the history of the colour in working dogs.

For the OP I think those lines are not bad places to start for anyone looking for a dark dog from working lines, and for a red dog from show lines, your best bet would be to check out any lines that Julie has mentioned. It is also possible to get a mix as it is fairly common for those wanting to breed from a pet lab, often from mainly show lines, to go to a FTCH stud. Finding a stud dog that you really like is a great starting point as most will be booked for numerous matings over the spring and summer and you will be able to get a list of females and look at their history etc long before the puppies ready to be sold.

 

I may have 'over-generalised' - in that, there may well be the odd dog here and there which is fox red and has been successful in the show ring. BUT - they are a rarity. Just a quick glance at any ring (which these days you can do quite well on YouTube!) can show you that.

All I can say, is that 1) fox red labs are ridiculously popular and it's only getting worse and 2) all the fox red labs I've had at my classes since I started about 10 years ago - (all those whose owners filled in the KC reg name part on the application form) - have been mainly working-line. I can't say I look back about 15 generations, but I (out of curiosity) do tend to put names into Mate Select and see what's behind the dogs. I have yet to have a *clearly* show bred fox red lab - there may be some smatterings of show blood in there.

Another approach: Going to ChampDogs to look at litters listed and specifically fox red litters, and seeing what's behind those dogs, gives you a snap-shot of where 'fox red pups' are coming from at the moment, since these are the same sources that puppy-purchasers will be looking at.

I think it is (like all pedigree stuff) more complicated than there being a few dogs further back that it all originated from - or, if that's the case - it would be a very long way back indeed. To further complicate things, fox red was originally a very undesirable colour, with most fox red pups culled at birth - because it was believed that Labs should be black. So if the fox red dogs were being culled, that makes tracing things genetically way back, even harder....