I started wondering this the other day and another thread prompted me to post. When Shadow sees me take out a tennis ball, he completely focusses on that. If I throw a treat at him, he won't take it, although if I offer it to him under his nose, he will. I've read before that an over-threshold dog won't eat. It doesn't count if you "post it" into his mouth, so I avoid that, and just offer it to him in the palm of my hand. If he can reach it without taking his eye off the ball - or me, if the ball is behind my back, say, then he'll take it. However, he appears to be focussed but very calm in these situations. I would imagine that an over-threshold dog would be showing other signs of heightened excitement or stress. Or maybe I'm just not experienced enough to read them in my dog. All I see is concentration and focus. Yes, too much focus on that one object, so I am already doing desensitisation to it (we'll come back to that later). Contrast this to a couple of days ago (the incident that got me thinking). Willow and Shadow were going absolutely crazy our on our large terrace, to the point I thought they could do themselves some damage, so I called them in. Shadow was besides himself with excitement, couldn't keep still, panting, tail wagging, trying to jump up... completely OTT. I started speaking quietly, slowly and calmly to him to try to get him back to some semblance of normality and, as I did this, I unintentionally used my hand in a downward movement just like my "down" cue. He responded like lightning to it, flat on the floor. I was amazed and tried out a few more cues. Again, he responded at mach 10 to each and every one. So, how do you spot an over-threshold dog? I would have given any money to say that this dog that's so wound up, he looks like he's being chased by a swarm of rabid bees, would never be able to follow a simple cue, and yet he did. Conversely, an apparently calm and collected dog struggles to focus on anything but the ball when it's in my hand. So, the second part of this question; back to my desensitisation around tennis balls. He's really not interested in the ball as an object. If it's on the floor next to him, he has very little interest in it. So there is no issue with him following cues in the presence of a ball, until it is in my hand. That is what he wants; the chase. I can also very successfully have him sit, I throw the ball and he waits until he's released to run after it. Additionally, if Shadow is on the lead and I throw a ball for Willow, he doesn't give two jots. The behaviour such as that shown in that picture I posted occurs when I have the ball in my hand, ready to throw it for him to chase. So, is this something I should be worried about and try to address? I do want the ball to retain its value as an amazing reward, without him getting silly over each and every ball, but that part seems to be going well. He's certainly interested if there are balls being played with nearby, but, if he's on lead, I can regain his focus easily enough and, if he's off lead and happens to head towards it before I nip it in the bud, I can recall him away from it. I need to do some more proofing of this, but it's not something I'm overly concerned about. I suppose I do want him to be able to respond to cues in any situation, even when I have a ball in my hand, posturing to throw, so should look at doing that. I'll maybe try with some tripe or hot sausage to see if that helps.
Typical, I took some video this morning of how he reacts when there's a ball around, and he didn't "zone out" at all...
I think the term "threshold" suggests a sort of bright line that the dog tips over or not. But in reality it's more helpful to think of it as a scale. I think it was Kay Lawrence that said if you can claim your dog is not reactive at all (scale zero) then it's dead.... To learn this at class (SWMBO's) involved a 10 point scale for signs of arousal - it was an interesting but challenging morning, involving clip boards, careful observation and writing upside down on our knees with pencils and the paper getting increasingly soggy in the rain... I moved on to trying to measure Charlie's heart rate with a stethoscope on Wimbledon Common to find out what increases and what decreases his arousal state. Really. I really did that. The scale (and even the form, I think) is in clicker gundog, and actually SWMBO has written more on this than anything else.
Ah, cool; I'm actually revisiting Clicker Gundog this morning, so will undoubtedly find it in there. Here's the video I took. You can see he hesitated when I ask for a hand target, and for the sit later on (I actually used a visual cue after my verbal one failed because he's more alert to that). In general, though, he's being pretty good, even when I'm throwing a ball for Willow. All very basic, obviously, and not structured at all. Stupidly videoed in portrait, sorry. [video=youtube;fGrIdNjUAaw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGrIdNjUAaw[/video]
Hehe, I remember you posting about that! I also remember SWMBO suggesting to you on FB that you didn't need to be quite so literal
It just looks like the ball is both a distraction and acting as a very powerful bribe - but the motivation is the movement of the ball for Shadow, not the ball, in that he wants the ball to move. A good test would be whether you can have the ball moving and Shadow could do something completely different (ie not follow cues to earn the ball, but follow his cues despite the fact he is not chasing a moving ball). It's an interesting for me to watch this and contrast to Charlie. For Charlie, it does not matter that the ball is not moving. It is the ball for Charlie, and it doesn't matter whether it's moving or not.
Good idea. I've had him staying in a sit as a ball has rolled past him, or I've thrown it towards him, or even done a proper (albeit very girly) throw. But I've not had him doing other things while it's there. That might be a two-person job, but I'll definitely try it. I think he would struggle with that, so something well worth working on. I'm not sure about the bribe thing. I mean, it clearly is in this case, because he can see it, but he bounces into his behaviours with the same enthusiasm whether he can see it or not. Even before I started bringing in the tennis ball as a reward, he'd do the same. I think he is one of those dogs that finds verbal and physical interaction as very rewarding, which makes him appear "very eager to please". Of course, that's nowhere near enough in more challenging environments, so the sausage and cheese aren't going anywhere! I would suggest you have a look at it "in the flesh" when we're over, but I think that introducing a ball into the mix might be a Very Bad Idea
Haha, no, balls and Charlie are subject to a intricate set of rules I'm afraid and balls plus other dogs doesn't work for us at all. Although I could watch through binoculars, of course. For sure, they might be exactly the same without the ball, I wouldn't know of course. They are both "hovering" though, and looking like they are about to take off....that's quite something if you get that with cheese too!
I'm not convinced he's over threshold from your descriptions on this thread. It sounds like he's just making the wrong choice because he thinks there's a chase in it for him. I would consider negative punishment and remove the ball, keep distance and duration short ask for a behaviour. No behaviour, ball goes away. Effectively how steadiness is trained...... So hard to tell without seeing him (or being SWMBO )
Oh, the hover is definitely all about the ball - they're anticipating the throw when they're doing that. But the actual behaviours I'm asking for are either the same or better without the ball visible as a bribe. I'm just back from a walk and, at the end, we stopped and watched some kids playing football. Kids plus moving ball. He was barely even interested.Who is this dog, and where is Shadow?! He seems to be changing a lot recently, and maybe a bit of maturity is creeping in around balls. Or maybe that's wishful thinking. I'll do some experimenting tomorrow, if I can grab J to help out for a bit.
Shadow doesn't seem all that bad to me, but my yardstick of comparison is Charlie. Charlie hovers higher than a cross channel hovercraft (I'm old enough to have been on those!) at the mere smell of a ball. So I declare fully that I have a ball hover dog....and he does not get the ball if he does that - because those hover sits and hover downs are only as good as normal if you would normally accept a bum off the ground in a sit, or front legs half down in a down.... I can get Charlie to do anything I want if I have the ball. If he thinks he is actually going to get that ball, I view it as no different to showing him a whole roast chicken and saying sit. The thing I'm aiming for is to have him "give up" the ball. No hovering, no half dashing off in anticipation of a throw - steady. Because he has truly "given up" the ball until I say "take it".
Oh, yes, me too. One trip, one of the engines failed in rather choppy waters. It definitely deserved its nickname of the "vomit comet" I'm completely with you on the quality of the sits and downs. I'm a bit more lenient with Willow because she's only just getting comfortable with the down when we're out and about, and I don't want to make it stressful for her. We've come on leaps and bounds and the fact that she does it at all is fabulous because she was so resistant to it. You can see her very waggy tail, which is partly because she can see the ball, but she often does this now when I ask her to lie down without a bribe (which she doesn't need anymore) because I've reinforced it with such high value treats. I just need to tighten it up and increase my selectiveness in what gets rewarded. I don't think that should take long, though; it's not long since she needed luring every single time and clearly hated it. Now, it's her new party trick, so we're ready to move on
Back to the original question.....Charlie is just off to the beach with OH and a ball. When we get back, I'll post a vid of an over threshold dog....
Haha! Can't wait! I did some work with them this morning. J played with a ball with Willow and I had Shadow doing some basic stuff. He was distracted, but could manage to do easy things, at a distance, on lead. Needs lots of work, but it was a start. Thanks for the input
So, here is Charlie on the beach. He looks like a well mannered pet (looks can be deceiving! ). There is a kid kicking a football around to the left of me (out of shot), a couple playing tag with long bits of seaweed, and a dog fetching a ball thrown by a tennis ball flinger. All of these distractions would normally be extremely challenging to Charlie. But not here, because we are near water and have dummies with us. A football further up the beach is nothing to him. well behaved pet by Julie T, on Flickr But, what Charlie can't do, is move away from a dummy and water and follow cues. He is completely unable to follow a simple "close" cue, and fails to manage even a hand touch. He can't even stay with me but returns to gaze at the dummy (from which I would not be able to recall him a second time. He only came the first time because he thought it might be the start of a retrieve). Obviously, he didn't get the dummy..... trouble following cues by Julie T, on Flickr
Charlie always looks as if he's smiling Obi behaves the same way when we're doing memories and I walk him away. Every time we even approach stopping he reorients himself to the dummy!
Oh looking forward to the vids when I get the ipad out. I have 3 labs currently..Casper can look quite calm when completely over his threshold in a "reactive" state. He will not take food or respond to any cues, completely fixated on what is bothering him. We use a scale with Casper, and that can dictate where we can take him. For example a very relaxed Casper at around 5..(1 - 10) we can help him deal with most things. If we get to a 7 or 8 we are entering a potential for him to react badly, we aim to keep him at around 5. Mostly we are able to help Casper and only walk him where he is comfortable, and we help him understand that we are taking control of the environment so he doesn't have to worry, but mishaps do happen. Blake our foster is interesting...when he sees there might be a retrieve happening, food is irrelevant, he lives for an opportunity to fly after a tennis ball/frisbee or dummy. I don't see this as "over threshold" just very focussed on a retrieve, as if I hold the ball and ask for a cued behaviour sit/down,he is then very keen to work for the opportunity to retrieve, and some retrieves are more exciting than others! The ball in my hand replaces the high value treat in my pocket. I guess I associate "over threshold" with more of an amygdala hijack..in the sense of a response to a fear/sexual stimulus then a heightened/focussed desire to work in dogs?
I have been taught to see a dog's inability to eat as a bad thing, never a good thing. I never see Charlie's inability to eat as meaning he is "just focussed". I always take it to mean he is far too distracted and excited by something (usually the prospect of a retrieve). This has been drummed into me - and I do believe it - an ability to eat indicates a dog that is massively distracted and is not a good thing. So very many people seem to think it indicates a good thing, but I honestly believe it indicates a dog that is too scared or too aroused to respond to the primary reinforcer of food (unless they have been conditioned to take food in those circumstances).
Although, just to add - I have read an article and seen a video - of a dog in a quiet room, with no distractions, that wasn't at all interested in food. But I think that's different. A dog with genuinely little interest in eating generally (or perhaps has no good associations with earning food given by humans) is not the same thing. Charlie lives for food, and for earning food - so when he can't eat it, there is something wrong.
I agree with Julie, a dog that won't take food is not great. The dogs I see working that are really good are alert but relatively calm. They mark birds and wait to be sent but if they're turned for a new bird or a blind they break away from the first bird and pay attention where they're directed. If you can't get a simple cue response or a dog to take food....or at least sniff it and make a clear choice they don't want it then I think you've got a dog that isn't under control. If they're not under control by your side they certainly won't be under control many metres from you in a field potentially full of game, or footballs, or picnics
