I cannot get Charlie to focus for very long for our training sessions which are generally about 15 minutes and on our drive which is surrounded by trees/scrubs etc. He sometimes just takes off for a lap of honour without my permission and I cannot crawl through scrubbery and keep up with him to get him out. Today I waited for his return put his lead on took him inside and closed the door for a minute then brought him back out, I repeated this 3 times and then he regained his focus but I am worried this could be just the wrong way to deal with it but I am out of ideas ??? Once he gets going he does really well but he just can't resist this which I guess is self rewarding I yell NO, ah ah sometimes it works and he returns to great treats but other times …. Any ideas? x
Re: How to stop this :/ Could you let him have his laps of honour before you do his 15 minutes of training, let him get his energy out of his system? You could give him a command to do this so that he is still under 'rules'.
Re: How to stop this :/ Sounds like a good approach to me...although, the trainer I went with was much better than I was at judging when my Charlie could no longer concentrate and then he'd get a break. 15 mins was the max (my boy was just a puppy then though) but if it was only 5 minutes, well, that's what it was. But makes me wonder...is 15 mins, short though it is, too much? Should you maybe try 30 minutes, but with 5 min breaks each 5 mins. If there is any pattern to his hooning off, of course. Working on the principle you should only ask them to do what they can do...
Re: How to stop this :/ Stacia that sounds like a good idea, but I was told that he should do what I want him to do first and fun after ??? Julie, no pattern at all sometimes he takes straight off before we've even started training and other times in the middle etc, I think he maybe hears a bird or something rustle and off he goes but it's so frustrating I would have thought 15 minutes is quite short considering he is 3 years old now :, but 30 minutes could work but what would we do for the breaks, go inside or just sit quietly outside?
Re: How to stop this :/ The trouble with having fun afterwards is that the dog forgets what it is learning! Learning should be fun as well. We were always taught the other way round! Also if you give him a command to "run around" he is doing what you want him to do
Re: How to stop this :/ Stacia, yes that makes sense, OK I will do it that way round. Should I wait for him to return to me when he has had enough running he usually does within a minute or two? now I need a suitable command :-\
Re: How to stop this :/ I would wait for him to return rather than risk him ignoring a command. When he comes back, lots of praise and let him know you have the dummy and are going to throw it, or place it or hide it. My young Lab now never leaves my side when I have my dummy bag on
Re: How to stop this :/ I take it when he does his thing he doesn't respond to his recall? Just wondering if it's more of a recall issue than a running off issue? How about attaching a 10m recall training line for his sessions, would at least make catching him easier ;-) Or use a jackpot treat to tempt him back under his own will? Just thought it was worth offering a different perspective on the problem, it sounds like there's two separate issues really, one him charging off, one him not coming back until HE wants to, which if you take it as a given that during their adventures in the great outdoors they will see things that capture their interest and off they go, to me that's expected, it's getting them back again is paramount ;D You do need to be very careful about the lead-on and back in the house "punishment" for his actions as it's further showing him that coming back to you isn't a cool thing to do! You should never be cross with your dog for coming back to you, if you want keep it strong. Really you should just let him come back when he's ready, and then act like you've just won the lottery - praise, a secret toy, treats or any combination. And the general rule of building a good recall is never to chase after them. So I think if I was in your position, I'd try the aforementioned and if still no luck introduce a training line to catch him the moment he runs, and reel him back in, which after a lot of repetition may enable him to learn it doesn't get him anywhere, not a rewarding thing to do, or just break the habit. And also do some recall work calling him away from as much excitement as you can generate, e.g. friends, friends with toys, and other dogs! But they'll always be situations in forests or parks etc where you don't have a training line attached, so I do think this issue is about recall, recall and recall!
Re: How to stop this :/ Thanks for the advise, there's an awful LOT of history with Charlie. to sumarise, he is a rescue Lab x Pointer that we got at 9 months now 3 years, we were NOT told his was an absconder, so all work we do is on a 30 mtr line for whistle recall and retrieving, stop whistle and general obedience is done at home on our driveway off lead and we are proofing slowly outside on sections of his walk. I don't get cross with him and am always excited on his return believe me and offering jackpot rewards and ball retrieves, praise etc. I wouldn't be able to chase him he is way to fast so that's never done either. If when I am training him he goes for a lab of honour I do not recall him as I really don't want to run the risk of ruining what we have spent SOOOO long building on so I wait We RECALL, RECALL, RECALL, RECALL, RECALL oh and RECALL ;D He has done so well it's just this little issue but I think Stacia has hit the nail on the head and I think I will give that a go as got nothing to lose at this point
Re: How to stop this :/ Many sympathies, I have a dog prone to the mad 'lap of honour' too, although I'm well aware that you're battling bigger issues than I am. Merla does it mainly either when my kids are winding her up (fair enough) or, more problematically, for my father who kindly does 'doggy daycare' for her. She will do exactly 2 retrieves for him and then takes off around his nice biggish lawn, doing circles and figures of eights, deaf to his calls. She'll also do it with my husband on walks, just whirling in large circles around him! She does it occasionally with me, but can generally be brought back down from orbit by either a recall for a really decent treat or a stop whistle (don't know why this cuts through the insanity, but it does seem to). It's the most maddening thing as you feel so irrelevant! Does Charlie dive through the hedge and do the lap-work round a nearby lawn, or does he actually do circuits of the drive? (Not sure it matters, just trying to get a picture.) My feeling is also that it might not be great to take him inside once he comes back, as actually by the time he comes back he's just done what you wanted. Would jackpot treats for coming back mid-whirl work do you think? If it was something suitably noisy or smelly it might attract his attention while whirling without needing to risk your recall signal being ineffective. You could maybe get in there with the cue when he was already on his way over after being attracted by the rustling bag (or whatever). I do have moments also when I long for a dog who'll 'bimble along' (Barbara's phrase I think!). Merla sometimes seems to be part spaniel part whippet instead of a labrador, this afternoon at the beach being a case in point!! Good fun, but everyone else there seemed to be having a much more relaxing time than me . It's very heartening to read your posts, and I think you're doing an amazing job!
Re: How to stop this :/ [quote author=charlie link=topic=4484.msg54755#msg54755 date=1392581628] I think he maybe hears a bird or something rustle and off he goes [/quote] Ah....hmmm. Tricky with a dog like Charlie, isn't it? [quote author=charlie link=topic=4484.msg54755#msg54755 date=1392581628] but 30 minutes could work but what would we do for the breaks, go inside or just sit quietly outside? [/quote] This might not be the answer at all if it isn't a lack of concentration (but a rustle or bird). But anyway, my Charlie got "free time" ie he could do what he wanted (unless he went too far then he was recalled) - which was mainly sniff round the field and try get the gundog trainer's dog to play. Things like that.
Re: How to stop this :/ As I said in the gundog post I do two lots of 20 to 30 mins of training a day. Like Julie suggests I let them have a break about half way through especially if I can tell their attention is wandering. I say race and they know they can run around. Once puffed we start again with for example a simple stay just to get a bit calmer first. Training wasn't always so structured and still isn't all the time but they have improved over time and as they've got older, even just a month or so, their attention span has definitely improved but sometimes it still feels like banging my head against a brick wall.
Re: How to stop this :/ i am getting confused, ....jasper is my first dog, i did struggle with the total recall,,,,after reading pippas book over and over we got there in the end,......jasper is a pet, i do train him every day,......if they are pets what level of training do you want them to do,? am i missing something ?
Re: How to stop this :/ [quote author=lynnelogan link=topic=4484.msg54794#msg54794 date=1392588745] i am getting confused, ....jasper is my first dog, i did struggle with the total recall,,,,after reading pippas book over and over we got there in the end,......jasper is a pet, i do train him every day,......if they are pets what level of training do you want them to do,? am i missing something ? [/quote] Riley is just a pet really Lynne but we do a reasonable amount of training (I think) for several reasons... It's fun ;D and uses his natural instincts Some bonding between Riley and I A reasonable level of obedience To give Riley an alternative to just cruising around looking for trouble : The training has led to the possibility of him actually working on game rather than that being the original aim.
Re: How to stop this :/ [quote author=lynnelogan link=topic=4484.msg54794#msg54794 date=1392588745] ......if they are pets what level of training do you want them to do,? [/quote] It's not so much about level, but rather that if you have a very high energy dog, you either channel the energy or live with an out-of-control nightmare. On a practical note, it occurred that I never actually do 'training time' (mostly because I have quite a small garden and two children who have a tendency to interrupt). We just put in odd exercises throughout the day, which means boredom or distraction becomes less of a problem.
Re: How to stop this :/ [quote author=lynnelogan link=topic=4484.msg54794#msg54794 date=1392588745] i am getting confused, ....jasper is my first dog, i did struggle with the total recall,,,,after reading pippas book over and over we got there in the end,......jasper is a pet, i do train him every day,......if they are pets what level of training do you want them to do,? am i missing something ? [/quote] Lynne, I have to do a lot of training with Charlie as I have to combat his desire to abscond which involves recall, retrieving, stop whistle etc. I too worked through Pippa's Total Recall but that was just the beginning for us. Believe me if I didn't have to this much training I wouldn't. Charlie is just a pet but this is absolutely vital.
Re: How to stop this :/ Julie yes everything is tricky with Charlie : Merla, he does dive through hedges on the drive, can't take him into the garden as neighbours cat uses us as a cut through, too many trees = distractions and 2 fence panels down in the gales I think I will have to get the roast chicken out or SNAKE!! Plan of action:- When we go onto the drive for training let him have his fun with lap(s) of honour and when he returns give jackpot treat and do some retrieving, stop whistle, recall, then free time. Some heel work, memories, marked retrieves then free time, a little obedience and end with free time and tennis ball. How does that sound? I was getting frustrated with his hooning around today whilst I am trying to train him and I should not have put him back on lead and taken him inside, that was a very basic NO NO. I should know better - sorry : Thanks everyone for your help xx
Re: How to stop this :/ [quote author=charlie link=topic=4484.msg54814#msg54814 date=1392590834] I was getting frustrated with his hooning around today whilst I am trying to train him and I should not have put him back on lead and taken him inside, that was a very basic NO NO. I should know better - sorry : [/quote] I thought, at one point, Pippa advised that it was a good management strategy for a hunt driven dog to go back in the car/house if they didn't co-operate - although that might have been for hunting and not hooning around (but if the hooning around is really a bird hunt...). I don't know how you do it, Helen, such a challenge, with all these unique Charlie rules! Can't keep up...
Re: How to stop this :/ Yes that was exactly my first thought as he is hunting through the trees and up on his back legs looking for birds. Oh I just don't know, why does Charlie have to be soooo different as 'normal' rules sometimes just don't apply to him : Challenge, you have no idea xx
Re: How to stop this :/ Sounds like a plan, Helen. Good luck Julie, I think that was for blinking a retrieve, which is not quite the same- I feel in this case the key is to make yourself more interesting than hooning around, not less. 'Tis tricky though. Good job we love them
