Re: How to stop this :/ [quote author=Merla link=topic=4484.msg54819#msg54819 date=1392591853] I feel in this case the key is to make yourself more interesting than hooning around, not less. [/quote] Cover myself in chicken ;D ;D Thanks Kath I will go with my new plan and see if that makes a difference to the 'nutter'
Re: How to stop this :/ [quote author=Merla link=topic=4484.msg54819#msg54819 date=1392591853] Julie, I think that was for blinking a retrieve, which is not quite the same- I feel in this case the key is to make yourself more interesting than hooning around, not less. [/quote] Well, I don't know. At least he seemed to calm down and focus with Helen's strategy. Good luck tomorrow Helen, let us know how you get on.
Re: How to stop this :/ The getting put away strategy is because if you let them play, go for a walk etc you're effectively rewarding them for not doing as you ask whether that's a retrieve or anything else. I think there's two points to keep in mind.....they should know what you've asked them to do and 'chosen' not to do it ie disobeyed. Second point is disobeying is NOT the same thing as losing concentration or being slightly over loaded. Someone who's seen more dogs may have more insight but I think understanding your dog, how to get him in work mode and when he's flagging are important to differentiate between putting him away and giving him a break. These things may change from day to day, with the weather......phase of the moon ;D You're doing great Helen! Stick at it
Re: How to stop this :/ I've seen some dogs who wont retrieve a roast chicken if they haven't burnt off some energy first and others who only have so much go so if they'd been walked before class would have lain down for a snooze! They're all different and what works at one stage of training changes as you progress. For Riley no retrieve, no walk but I recognise that day won't be a good training day so the second I get my retrieve big fun, rewards and the plan gets changed. Earlier in our training it was more likely to be I asked too much, training itself was boring...lots of things. Now he knows what I'm asking and I want that dummy back no matter how dull and then I make an adjustment to my plan/expectations for the day. You know Charlie inside out, you'll come up with a good strategy ;D
Re: How to stop this :/ I agree with Barbara. There is a difference between disobeying and losing concentration or just not being in the mood. I train mine so much for the same reasons to keep them occupied, fun, to use their natural instinct etc. if we didn't train and I just let them loose chaos would reign!!! : also there overall behaviour has improved as they improve with training. I know what you mean Helen about getting frustrated mine can drive me nuts sometimes they just don't listen or won't and things I know they can do backwards with eyes closed theyve suddenly forgotten how. A few weeks ago though I'd got really frustrated with them then it struck me why? Why am I getting so frustrated and worked up, training should be fun not stressful and it doesn't really matter if their not in the mood today tomorrow they probably will be. I'm training for me and them. They are never going to compete in trials and unlikely to go on a shoot so it doesn't matter. You'd be amazed what a difference my change in attitude has made. That afternoon they did everything asked and since then they've been so much better and I'm sure it's because I'm not getting stressed when they race off after a pigeon or ignore me because a scent is much more interesting. When I say I'm not getting stressed I haven't suddenly become perfect and calm some days I still think arggghhh why are you doing that!!!! but I try to remember it doesn't matter. If they race off or get destracted I either wait until I know I can get their attention and then give them a simple instruction that can be rewarded and build up from their or I assume the position of no reward marker, arms folded not looking happy. They usually come to me and we go from there again. It's taken time but they are improving. They don't race off as often and they have a longer attention span. I think mixing up the things we train helps rather than focusing on one thing and letting them have a break when I know their attention is slipping. Since allowing them to race their self rewarding racing has reduced a lot and they will stop when told that never happened before. Sorry this has got rather long and probably no help. What I'm trying to say is unfortunately it is time and perseverance that works. You might feel its never going to work, I have and I do feel like that but my two are now proving to me that it does work so just keep going Helen. ;D
Re: How to stop this :/ [quote author=bbrown link=topic=4484.msg54836#msg54836 date=1392625188] The getting put away strategy is because if you let them play, go for a walk etc you're effectively rewarding them for not doing as you ask whether that's a retrieve or anything else. I think there's two points to keep in mind.....they should know what you've asked them to do and 'chosen' not to do it ie disobeyed. Second point is disobeying is NOT the same thing as losing concentration or being slightly over loaded. Barbara, thank you. I believe Charlie is disobeying as I have given him an instruction and he takes off and we have just begun our training. So what to do about that? [quote author=bbrown link=topic=4484.msg54838#msg54838 date=1392625768] I've seen some dogs who wont retrieve a roast chicken if they haven't burnt off some energy first. He would also fall into this section too, so now I am totally confused ??? You know Charlie inside out, you'll come up with a good strategy ;D I do know him but how to deal with this is a totally different thing altogether [/quote] [/quote]
Re: How to stop this :/ It's occurred to me that dog training is like making coffee. Some are instant, quick, done. Some it slowly percolates and slowly filters through but you get a good cup of coffee in the end. My two are definitely of the slowly percolating blend. Isn't that the best coffee though? ??? I only drink tea ;D Helen what would happen if you ignored him, left him even, just walk off, you go inside. Obviously I don't know if it's safe to do this for you but I do it with mine. If they've raced off having a hoolie around the garden I shout right I'm going bye bye and start walking. For some reason they've learnt bye bye don't know how and unless they are really out of control they will usually come. I will then say sit and treat the sit and then do close up stuff until the red mist has passed. If they are out of control I go and get them. This might mean waiting for them to stop puffed, its not easy intercepting mine at full power they took my legs from under me yesterday . I would then do simple stuff and if that wasn't going to work pack in for that session. If I'm being ignored in favour of a smell I will go and stick my foot under their nose until they can't ignore then give a command like sit in a bit of a teacher voice which means I'm not messing. I have it easier than you in that Scott's attention can be bought with treats and scouts with treats or a ball but sometimes I literally have to put the treat in front of their nose before they remember my existence. I find it very hard to make myself the most interesting thing. I can't beat birds, joggers going passed on the lane or just a smell but when they get destracted I recall whistle and or verbal and if they come back even if not instant I reward. It's difficult I know it's finding that thing that makes it all start to click. I haven't been much help here I just wanted you to know Ive had and have similar problems but it is improving and Charlie will too. If you think what he was like when you got him or even a few months ago it might not be everything but there is improvement. I have to remind myself how much mine have improved when I've repeated the same thing 27 times and I'm pulling my hair out.
Re: How to stop this :/ Oh Helen, it is confusing! Much sympathy. It all comes down to that dratted, dratted recall, doesn't it? I was looking at the posts and thinking well, what would I do if Charlie legged it during training? And the answer is just that I'd recall my Charlie, then do something easy, and then give him a break. Although my boy doesn't really leg it when we are training (he does if he is not under orders - left to his own devices, and I see his bum going over the horizon : ).
Re: How to stop this :/ that is exactly what i was thinking julie, i would just recall jasper, and change the training i was doing to some thing different
Re: How to stop this :/ It's so hard Helen, you have my total sympathy and respect. I would think about it this way..... If Charlie CAN'T focus on what you've asked him to do, he may need a run around in a safe place. Do you still have access to that paddock? If he WON'T focus I would put him away and try again in a few minutes. It's a really difficult thing to work out when to insist on the discipline and that's why good dog trainers can earn a living If you can't decide which it is I would be tempted to try both methods a few times in a row and see which gives you a better response. I'd probably try and get rid of some excess energy first and then get tough if that doesn't help So hard to tell without seeing you both though :-\ Remember you're still trying to make retrieving super fun so that it's an alternative in Charlie mind to 'other' fun stuff ;D
Re: How to stop this :/ Thanks ladies so much . Barbara, unfortunately I don't have access to the paddock as before flooding Kim had her horses in it and now her paddock is totally under about a foot of water and my neighbours fence panels are down that back onto the paddock so Charlie could get through onto the main road. All I have at the moment is our drive which is gravelled but at least large enough to train. I will try your suggestions Barbara and see how he gets on and don't worry I am making the retrieving super fun and when he does return I give him a retrieve and lots of praise, at least we are progressing on that front : Sorry to be a pain, there always seems to be an issue with Charlie and me Thanks so much xx
Re: How to stop this :/ Just did 20 minutes training armed with smelly pilchards. He had a run around to start with and on his way back I recalled him and he got a pilchard then he did some lovely memories, and general retrieving. We had a break and he ran around a bit and on his way back I recalled him to another pilchard. We did some lovely stop whistles and the pretending to throw the ball worked really well to get some distance and we got 2 really good stop whistles, although he did look mighty confused, so hope it's OK to do this one :-\ He headed off for the trees without my permission but I recalled him to the whistle just in time and he returned immediately to more pilchards Did a little obedience and ended with a couple of ball retrieves, so better than yesterday. Phase one went well, lets see how he goes tomorrow so that I don't have to take him inside :
Re: How to stop this :/ Sounds really good, Helen! Here's hoping for more good stuff the next time....you are making progression in the right direction. Fingers crossed here!
Re: How to stop this :/ Sounds very good indeed, just make sure you reward the stop whistle so that he can see the point of doing it :
