I cannot agree with not giving advice

You have made if perfectly clear Pippa, I just don't agree with the rule as it stands and haven't for a long time. Turning these owners away is not dealing with puppy welfare in my opinion. I don't mean to offend in any way it's just how I feel. x

 

It's fine to disagree with the rule. And I am happy to discuss it. I think it is important to recognise thought, that no-one on the forum has a monopoly on caring or kindness. We all care.

What we are debating here, is the best way to achieve the outcome we all want. Let's try and hold the debate to that point and see where it takes us.

At one time, I think we would have been utterly swamped if we had allowed the (pretty large) following we have on the main site, to post up their underage puppy problems. In fact this whole forum would have been a very different place. But things are different now. The volume of comments on underage puppies has diminished. And I'm willing to reconsider.

 

I just feel the rule could be made in a kinder way, say why the forum rules are as they are, but please come back as soon as the pup is 8 weeks old. This forum is such a HELP in changing peoples ideas to more positive forms of training, I know it has certainly influenced me and can change the lives of so many more dogs. I really don't think it would encourage people to sell underage dogs!! Most appear to be in India and I am sure with some education this could change. If we encouraged better welfare by our example, this would do more good than the fear it might to the opposite. I am not proposing that the question should stay open for us members to all give advice, but some pointers in the right direction and some empathy would make all the difference.

 

I wasn't saying that I am the only one who cares, obviously we all do or we wouldn't be discussing it. I think the current rule is harsh when all owners want is some help from someone anyone and not when the puppy reaches 8 weeks old but now when it's critical and in a approachable way.

Education is always going to be the way forward, it always has been. x

 

I think this is a really hard one.

It seems clear to me that there needs to be a hard line drawn in the sand. Taking young puppies away from their mother before 7 weeks is not acceptable. This forum must not be seen to endorse that, in any way whatsoever, and we probably all need to be very firm on that principle.

On the other hand, most of these posters are coming to the forum for help, they truly care about their young puppy, and we do want to help them and their pup. We also want to gather them into the fold of responsible dog owners, to help change attitudes across the world.

Is there a compromise where the message that goes back to them is a variation on the existing - a message that says:

• welcome to the forum.
• there is a real problem with underage puppies and this forum feels strongly about it (pretty much as the message says now).
• there can be serious health issues that this forum cannot address properly, so PLEASE GO TO YOUR VET NOW. Please do not delay. Your little pup may have long term health issues if you don't address this - we don't want to scare you but this is just true.
• come back when you have discussed with the vet, and let us know what the vet has said. We can give you lots of support and advice on lots of issues, but not on how to care for your tiny underage puppy.
• please tell everyone about this problem - please help us spread the word that taking pups from their mums too early is very dangerous and is likely to cause long-term problems.
• we look forward to hearing from you when you've been to the vet, and to hearing how your little pup is getting on.

Then we all need to be careful in our responses, to be clear that we don't try to be a replacement for professional advice (while still being supportive and welcoming)...?

 

I think that's the intent of the pro-forma moderator note. To explain that the puppy is underage and it's not appropriate for it to be away from its mother. And that the only person qualified to be giving advice is a vet.

Maybe we should differentiate between the people with medical concerns and those who are experiencing behavioural issues due to the puppy being removed too early.

Maybe the mod note's wording should be amended.

Maybe, the rule should be altered so that, in some cases, other people can comment.

I do think that, in the case of the very young that need veterinary attention, we should absolutely lock the thread with a pre-written comment. This is to help us all out. Before the pro-forma comment was implemented, mods would often "free-form" reply to these posts before locking and that is a dangerous game, because ( you may have noticed ) certain of us aren't always able to keep our knickers on as straight as we'd like when it comes to things that seem to us to be obvious neglect, such as where someone says they can't take their flagging underage puppy to the vet, because they live too far away. No, it's far better for everyone concerned that there is a pre-approved comment that we can simply paste in without any chance of rising to an inflammatory topic. We are only human, after all.

So, my vote goes towards splitting the issues into:
1. Obvious vet referrals - pro forma mod comment and lock the thread
2. Other non-medical issues with a puppy under six weeks - pro forma mod comment with links to resources and lock the thread
3. Other non-medical issues with a puppy six weeks or older - pro forma mod comment with links to resources and keeping the thread open

 

I do agree with Pippa, though, these posts appear to be happening far less frequently than they used to, so maybe we can become a bit more flexible than we could when we were getting lots each week.

 

I'm with Rosie.

"Please go immediately to the vet and come back and let us know what they said."

But I would remove any posts which give any medical, care or feeding advice - it's simply beyond our expertise.

.

 

I have an issue with removing posts. I think it's far better to not allow them in the first place. Firstly, you're wasting the time of the person who wrote the post, and the moderator who has to delete or edit it, and secondly, people really hate being censored, more than they do not being allowed to comment in the first instance.

 

Yes, I know - but, if it were made clear at the outset then - hopefully - there wouldn't be many.

.

 

I'm more than happy not to keep my knickers on straight when need be, it's called being passionate Imagine coming to the forum with a sick underage puppy, you ask for advice and there appears the big blue rule in your face, it's like a big 'BOGG OFF' and don't come back you terrible owner. I would just like to see these owners remain on the forum, to learn what's right for the puppy and keep it safe and healthy, surely that's progress. Also there are always threads running about feeding, poo, blockages etc. and advice is given and not from vets so I don't see the difference x

 

I personally think that locking the thread is still the way to go. Leaving the thread open will just result in a hundred posts saying "your puppy is too young to be away from their mum/siblings". Also, as Pippa mentioned, there are so few of us that even come close to being able to advise on the health, behaviour, development etc. of an underage puppy that I feel the mods may end up spending unnecessary time monitoring the posts on the thread.

I wouldn't be against modifying the moderator note to be a little more friendly/welcoming though.

 

The difference is between sharing experiences about caring for a new baby and giving advice on caring for a prem baby - the latter is for professionals only imo

.

 

So just blocking them is the way forward for the puppy? I am not talking about professional help just support in an approachable way that's all. I've had 4 premature babies and I learnt from other Mums too x

 

How do you support without giving feeding and care advice?

In RL I'd support by helping them access the vets. But here we can't do that.


.

 

I like Rosie's message, it is more encouraging to the OP to come back, which is what we want, after all.

By continuing the advice of "see your vet", and listening. Listening is a very helpful response.

 

I feel they are appearing less, because people Google "is my four week old puppy underweight", or similar, and find this forum with our rules. That was a major reason for our agreeing to the rule in the first place, to educate people that taking young puppies from their mother and siblings is wrong, dangerous, and cruel.

It breaks my heart, it really does every time, but it also makes me furious.

I'm amenable to a 'friendlier' moderators' note though, not quite so 'leave and never darken our doors again', with an invitation to come back when the puppy is seven weeks old (if it's still alive, poor mite) but I'm still in favor of locking the thread.

 

Exactly!

 

Or without support these puppies are dying anyway x

 

As was done in this thread by the only three respondents when I saw it.

https://thelabradorforum.com/threads/puppy-dripping-pee.19450/