I cannot agree with not giving advice

Well my 2 cents. I started this journey in getting a puppy by somehow ending up at a "known" puppy mill site, little to much knowledge. I started looking around falling in love with so many puppies and was amazed at how "cheap" they were. Then I recalled that my co-worker recently got a puppy and spent a pretty penny on him coming from a show breeder. Doing research and what not I started to learn about all the complexities of buying a puppy. So I did my homework and got Sparky.

Unfortunately, not alot of people know/learn these things. I bet alot of people think puppies are just puppies and everything would be all fine, but little they do know. The nipping and other problems are related to getting a puppy at such a young age. They finally go to the internet looking for help. Well that's what everyone does know. You need to replace a light bulb you go on youtube and learn how. They end up here, like me looking for more answers, only to get a slap in the face. Sorry. You screwed up. You didn't do your homework. You are on your own. Now they feel like its completely hopeless and now they will have a problem dog. Problem dog will end up at a shelter.

So this dog is now of age and someone "rescues" them. Now it's ok for this forum to help this person? Makes no sense.

I think it would be appropriate at least to guide them towards the right path, to minimize any problems. It is unfair to the puppies who were plucked from their mommies at such a young age. At least these folks are actually trying to find out what needs to be done to help with their problems.

 

I always think about it!

If you do a search through my posts, if I ever offer advice it's along the lines of "I'm not an expert, see your vet/behaviourist but this is what I did with my dog....". Obviously I'm just trying to protect the millions of assets in my estate

 

nothing to do with anything really but they are using thalidomide in cancer treatment. Its a great drug for some types.

 

I think we need to look at the sites of rescue groups and charities in the areas if the world where this is a common practice. They will be dealing with this regularly and it would be interesting to see how they cope with it.

 

I did make a point of saying , that whilst it was the norm in the 40`s / 50`s , it didn't mean that it was right . Neither does it mean that it was right to sell pups at a farmer market, but it happened . I was trying to say that these things happened, regularly back then , because " we " did not know that it was wrong . Education is key , I will not contribute further .

 

Education is always the key you are so right and I totally understood what you were trying to say. Things have progressed enormously when i think about how things were say even 20 years ago.

 

Education is very important and a very important (and effective) component of that is norm setting. When people know that a behaviour is socially unacceptable (as defined by a group they value) they tend to stop doing it. The role that this forum can and should play is to strongly advocate for the idea that buying underage puppies is totally and utterly unacceptable.

 

My thoughts entirely. The last paragraph! I tried to only highlight that one by deleting rest, but obviously failed!

 

I think in general, being nicer never hurt anyone. I see some posts on this forum and think they are unnecessary. If the pup has already been bought what is scolding the individual going to achieve? At least if they come back once the pup is 7 weeks we may be able to help with positive training.

 

I agree and it's a shame not everyone would agree with that which was my point and other members in the first place. xx

 

I also think that the message should be worded more kindly and not put in the forbidding blue frame. I think what is needed is an explanation that people on the forum can't help because caring for a very young puppy requires special medical knowledge only available from a vet. I also think that saying they are welcome to post again when their puppy is 8 weeks old would be friendly and a way of ensuring they returned for support with puppy behaviour which we can offer.

 

In certain parts of the world, India being one of them, it is a huge status symbol to have a "pure bred" dog. That is why we have so many requests from people asking if their puppy is a pedigree - and why we have a rule to prevent people asking that very question, in order to protect those puppies from what might happen if the answer is "no".

The problem with it being such an important status symbol, is that buyers are concerned that the breeder won't have any puppies left by the time they are eight weeks. The breeder is fine selling them early, so the buyer has to get in early to get one at all. This is often (not always, clearly, but often) the reality. It's about status. Not misinformation, not lack of understanding. Status.

Have a read of this: http://gingertail.in/voices/522/breeding-evil-truth-about-india’s-pedigree-dog-industry

Does that make you feel any differently? It does me.

If we support the people who have bought this tiny puppy as a status symbol, we are helping to uphold this being a cultural norm. I personally don't think it's wrong at all to vilify them. We're not doing that, however. We're simply saying "Go to the vet, you won't get any answers here". In these circumstances, I think that's rather restrained.

 

Exactly. And just to say, this is what we moderators have been struggling with, and why our 'blue box' response may seem rather forbidding.

 

No it doesn't make me feel any differently. Of course I'm extremely upset by this article but there are probably many more about breeders and puppy farms on our doorsteps

In the UK this is the case too, people have come on to the forum asking what breed their dog/puppy is and the answer is sometimes "buy a DNA test", does anyone worry what might happen to that puppy if it's not the breed they wanted - no and they don't have a big blue banner waved in their faces. We have this going on under our noses, disgusting puppy farms selling underage puppies to owners who maybe don't know any better, these puppies die too. We've all watched the TV programs. Why this hangup about this going on in India. It's not just India. Staffies are a status symbol in the UK and are treated terribly in the wrong hands, used for fighting sometimes to the death. The list is endless what "humans" do to dogs in ALL countries. I just don't get it to turn them away is heartless in my opinion when all that should matter is the life of the puppy and a little compassion as not everyone is unscrupulous they might just not have known they were doing the wrong thing buying a puppy an underaged puppy in the first place.

Nothing will change my mind.

 

If it is someone asking whether their puppy is a pure bred Labrador, the member is pointed to the rules and the thread is locked. We don't have a pro-forma moderator note, because it's not as complex an issue. In the case of puppies that are obviously not pedigree, and people are clearly just asking out of interest, this is not a violation of our rules, so telling people that DNA testing is an option is entirely reasonable and acceptable.

Well, in the UK it's now illegal; that should be another reason not to enter into a dialogue. The reason we talk about India more is because that's where the staggering majority of these requests come from. These are not stupid people. These are not uninformed people. These are people with access to the wealth of information on the internet. And they still choose to buy horrifically under-age puppies who have little chance of survival, just for the status of it.

Yes, a "one-size-fits-all" response may be harsh to a few people, and their puppies. On the other hand, those few well-meaning people might, faced with no help online, actually take their puppy to the vet!

There are two sides to this that I think are almost impossible to reconcile:
1. Helping the individual puppy
2. Trying to do our bit to prevent this happening in the future

There really is no way to do 1 on an online forum other than to urge the owner to take the puppy to the vet.

The more we discuss this, the more certain I am that, certainly for the questions of health, the right thing to do is to keep our policy unchanged, other than a possible reformatting of the statement.

 

It seems there was really no point in discussing this in the first place. Do all the Moderators agree with you Fiona?

 

Nope

There's absolutely every point in discussing these things. Whether or not anything changes, it's good to hear both sides. The final decision is ultimately Pippa's, and she will do what she considers best, which always seems to be pretty spot on, even when it differs from my own personal viewpoint. We're all human and sometimes coming to an agreement is impossible.

I do wholeheartedly respect your viewpoint, though, and understand completely where it comes from, even if I don't agree that it's the best course of action.

 

Well I think it's time for is all to sit back and take a few deep breaths.

There is no doubting that the issue of members posting requesting advice for their very underage pups is deeply distressing for all us animal lovers. Of course it is, it is a very emotive subject. When we deal with highly emotive threads we can all get a little upset. It honestly breaks my heart.

We on the mod board appreciate everyone's input, it is important to us, we need to make sure we are acting in everyone's interest, but more so, that the information that we put out there on the internet is right. That's the difficult bit.

So please bear with us whilst we review the forum's policy, and and as soon as this is completed we will let you know. In the meantime this thread will be locked.

Once again, thank you

 

Just be kinder in the response!