I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

I hope this is in the right place.

I don't know if any of you will remember me... I've got a mixed-breed named Skye. I joined sometime last year. Now, I've seen the articles on site and one intrigued me. The Silver Lab. Now, this is not an advocacy post or anything like that, so no worries there. XD I am honestly curious if anyone has seen some decline in the breeding of these dogs and would like to share my opinion on the matter.

I have seen angry, unhelpful remarks to those who have only asked Labrador people where they can get one. Instead of educating and being helpful to these bystanders and pointing them in the right direction, the replies have been rude and wholly unhelpful, possibly scaring these people away from asking and pushing them to buy even more without questioning ethics or doing research.

Now, my opinion. These dogs are not true Labradors, though they're close enough that people in the general public think so or can be tricked into thinking so. I see nothing wrong with the dogs themselves, but the people selling them for outrageous prices, calling them something that they're not, are scammers and need to be shut down. While I don't doubt that these dogs aren't absolutely wonderful creatures, they are probably going to be tossed up on a silver platter like the "white" doberman has been... Sold as a "well hidden secret" that "breeders don't want to share with you". Fighting this with words isn't going to make it go away unless those words are used to educate the public and not to climb up on your soap box and rant.

That's what I got. Lol
Feel free to point out any mistakes that I've made in my assumptions and disagree with me all you like.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

Hi there, your post raises a couple of questions for me

Are you referring to any posts on this forum? If so can you provide a link?

We have had a thread on silver labs but I don't recall anyone being angry or unhelpful.

Pippa's article on the main site deals with the subject thoughtfully and looks at the pros and cons (I think). Some of the comments show strong feeling but they are in amongst views from either side so I think they're ok (from my personal view)

Personally I think they look like an unusual variation on chocolate in the pictures I've seen and could be pure bred labs or they could be a cross breed. I haven't seen (or looked for) any DNA proof either way. I also haven't seen any in real life.

Would I buy one - no. That's because I want a working bred lab though. If I thought they were beautiful, I had the money and most importantly felt they had been bred well (health tests etc) then I don't see any reason why not.

In terms of finding one....everything Google throws up is US based so I'm not sure anyone in the UK is breeding them.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

Labs come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, and people are free to buy the characteristics they value. We often hear from people with dogs registered as labs worried about whether their lovely dogs are "pure" labradors - I think it was Rachael that pointed out that the only thing that makes a labrador a "pure" labrador is the registration with a Kennel Club. If silver labs are registered, they can be legitimately sold as labradors. Perhaps your argument is really that they shouldn't be registered, rather than with the sellers and buyers of what might be to some people the perfect dog for them.

In terms of people marketing a product as "special" - doesn't that happen all the time with hundreds of things we think about buying everyday?

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

Like Barbara, I think a link would be helpful here.

Whose argument are we discussing?

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

[quote author=editor link=topic=3200.msg34315#msg34315 date=1383855104]

Whose argument are we discussing?
[/quote]

I think this is my quote? I meant Wolfgirl_121's argument - but in a debating, rather than disagreeing, sense. In that she was putting forward a reasoning for her objection to the sellers (as "scammers") of silver labs.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

Yep. I was referring to the replies to Pippa's article. There were a few people asking where they could find one, and, instead of giving answers as to why they shouldn't buy one, this person continued to insult "mongrels" (my bby is a mixed breed and I found this very insulting) and continued to just state the same thing over and over again.

Yes, I agree that they aren't pure labs, and that they shouldn't be registered unless the labrador breed groups all come together and come to a decision on the matter. I also think that not enough people do their research and come to an educated decision. A lot of that has to do with people not wanting to be put down because they ask a question that, to experts, may seem stupid, but for the layman, who doesn't know these things, is completely valid in nature and should be treated as such.

Things are sold everyday as "special".... It's just not in my moral code, I guess, to market living beings as such. All life is special and shouldn't be exploited in that way just to make money off of uneducated people who don't make the effort to learn about what they're buying.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

I guess one tricky thing is that the facts aren't really known. Proponents of 'silvers' argue that the colour is a natural mutation. I guess it's a plausible theory, given that colour genes seem to be pretty unstable and mutate readily. But I don't know enough about the evolution of colour genes to be able to comment on whether the random production of silver allele in Labradors is even a possible thing, given the base material already present in Labradors. If the silver colour is a random mutation then I have no problem with it. If, on the other hand, silver has been introduced via surreptitious means (basically, someone making false claims about parents of litters) then I do have a problem with that as people are not playing by the rules. It is hard to know which scenario is true.

In Australia, where I live, our Labrador clubs and controlling bodies have taken a very clear line on this and do not recognise any dogs coloured silver. They regard silver colouration to be the product of a Weimaraner cross. Clubs and breeders here are very active in promoting this view. I have no idea if anyone is attempting to breed silver dogs here and I have never seen any advertised.

It is certainly an issue that can evoke very strong feelings. Longstanding breeders are very committed to what they are doing and are very identified with the breed. I can understand that they feel they have something important to protect here.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

I have just read the thread and the comments that follow and now understand this conversation. For the benefit of those that are still in the dark, the article is here And the comments that Wolfgirl is objecting to, are by Marjorie.

I think there is a difficulty in transferring a discussion from one location to another, especially where the person whose comments we are debating, has no opportunity to contribute to that debate. It might be an idea to respond to Marjorie via the comments box, as I don't think she is a member of this forum?

Interestingly, just before this thread was started, someone did respond to Marjorie and counter her statements

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

It's slightly ironic. I think, that heated debates can develop about pure bred and mongrel when the Labrador kicked off as a mongrel. Keeping breeds pure must therefore nowadays limit the chances of finding a really good combination that could go on to develop a breed of it's own - like Labradors. ;D

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

Kennel clubs do have processes that allow new breeds to be developed and recognised as registered breeds - which is as it should be. Not saying it's easy but it can be done

More difficult is getting recognition for a new colour in an established breed......

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

I was once wholeheartedly against the breeding of cross-breeds, or mongrels as they can quite rightly be called without any insult being intended. A mongrel is simply a dog of mixed heritage, and the word should not imply a lack of quality. Though it probably does these days. My feeling came from a need to protect my beloved gundog breeds. Breeds that have been developed and refined into superb working animals through years of selective breeding. And from my concerns that all that could be lost.

Nowadays, with my biologist hat on, I am very concerned about the long term effects of breeding within a close registry. All the evidence (gathered from island and isolated populations) points to the fact that breeding within a closed gene pool is probably not sustainable within the long run. No matter how many health tests we invent and enforce, it is likely that any gene pool shut off and isolated will deteriorate quite rapidly.

There is a movement towards a better understanding of the long term implications of closed registries, but the issues that lie at it's heart have not really been taken on board by the mainstream dog breeding population.

I am also dismayed by the refusal of so many pedigree breeders to recognise the immorality of deliberately breeding from animals that have debilitating health issues bound into their breed standard. But that is another story.

As far as introducing a variation in colour into an existing breed goes, if the dog is capable of working as a labrador should work, and has the conformation that a powerful retriever needs to be competent in its role, I really cannot see the harm. And as for how much people charge for so called designer dogs, I cannot for the life of me understand why people get so wound up about it. No-one is forcing anyone to buy a puppy. Prices are determined by market forces, not by some abstract concept of how much a dog is worth. How can anyone define the value of a puppy anyway? It is all a matter of opinion.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

I am definitely in favour of introducing sanctioned outcrosses to try to correct genetic issues in otherwise closed-registry breeds. It should be done on the basis of a clear strategy, good records and health testing.

I am a pure-breed snob at heart. But when you examine the practical issues closely it's a hard position to sustain for any length of time.....

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

[quote author=Oberon link=topic=3200.msg34392#msg34392 date=1383910507]
I am a pure-breed snob at heart. [/quote]

I used to be like this, but until you own a crossbreed/mongrel you do not understand how nasty some pure-breed only people can be. Technically both of my dogs are crossbreeds, but i don't mind, they are dogs, they don't know if they are a pedigree or not, it won't change the personality of the dog.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

Some of the best dogs I know are cross breeds.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

[quote author=Puppypal link=topic=3200.msg34419#msg34419 date=1383916032]
[quote author=Oberon link=topic=3200.msg34392#msg34392 date=1383910507]
I am a pure-breed snob at heart. [/quote]

I used to be like this, but until you own a crossbreed/mongrel you do not understand how nasty some pure-breed only people can be. Technically both of my dogs are crossbreeds, but i don't mind, they are dogs, they don't know if they are a pedigree or not, it won't change the personality of the dog.
[/quote]

No-one should take this literally, and please read that sentence in the context of the one that comes after it I am having a bit of a joke at my own expense.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

[quote author=editor link=topic=3200.msg34351#msg34351 date=1383897173]
Interestingly, just before this thread was started, someone did respond to Marjorie and counter her statements
[/quote]

Yup... I be the Andy. XD

I see the long-term effects of this "closed circuit" breeding everyday with my dobe. Yes, I do believe in breed standards, but introducing new genes that will be bred out in a generation or two will not hurt anyone. It could actually save our dogs from becoming the sickly, unhealthy beasts that they've been declining towards since people started becoming "snobs".

I have to agree with Pippa that coloration shouldn't matter in a breed as long as it's a healthy dog that fits all other standards as well as being able to work the way it's meant to, though, like a lot of hunting/tracking dogs with that white tip at the end of their tails, there are certain colors that DO have a place in a breed's standard.

I can't stand when "breeders" put a higher price on a puppy, just because they can make more money. BYB's and puppy mills are the biggest cause of this. When the "white gene" (albinism) was discovered in dobermans, BYBs started breeding them like mad, brother to sister, mother to son, father to daughter, it didn't matter. They just wanted more "rare white" pups to sell and didn't care about the health or temperament of these dogs. Nowadays, anyone looking to rescue a white dobe, whether it be for the color or the dog itself, can't find one without MASSIVE issues that you don't even find in fawns or blues, the diluted colors that are allowed by the doberman standard.

I just don't want to see this happen to our beloved labradors because these guys want to sell "rare silvers".

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

While some breeds have serious health issues that well and truly cross the line into deformities, most pure breeds are not declining, sickly or unhealthy. In fact, closed registers provide just about the only opportunity to regulate breeding activity to mandate the testing regimes or breeding goals that can bring a health benefit to a breed.

What worries me more are people who breed without reference to healthy genes, sound conformation and good temperament because they are in it for a quick buck. I'd hazard a guess and say that people like this are generally not the people who are committed to a pure breed but people running puppy farms and/or breeding 'designer' dogs.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

My thoughts:
I've owned , shown, bred for many years and recently trained my first working dog.
I've seen a fair few 'Fashion fads' in some breds, Dobies being the first one that springs to mind and the one thing that jumps out is the long term problems this can cause.
The silver lab is a fluke colour in my mind and being 'unusual' catches peoples eyes, but not always for the right reasons. With that happening, some breeders, see an opportunity to earn good money on these pups and that's where my heart sinks. Because these rare colours are very much in the minority, surely the only way to 'guarantee' more to this type, is to breed closely? And 'some' breeders wouldn't give two hoots as to how close the dogs are bred.
I only breed if I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I've done everything I can to prevent any problems with the pups and always try to compliment the breed. I certainly would not breed from a bitch or dog that didn't have good health check results and were as close to type as possible.
By breeding for 'fashion' it can surely, only bring about dogs that have health issues?
This would be such a shame as there are those of us that go to a great expense and research to try to irradicate the known problems within our breed.
Unusual isn't always better,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

Couldn't agree more, Dips.

 

Re: I think that there needs to be some discussion on this, as I haven't seen any.

My breed of choice comes from a much smaller pool of breeding dogs and botches than Labradors. I had both my dogs breeding checked thoroughly. Kaiser is the process of line breeding and zita is of much more open breeding, still pure GSP. Zita comes from primarily Irish and german lines, kaiser from Scottish and English lines and my next dog is Croatian and Italian lines.

There are many GSP crosses out there, lab x Gsp, English pointer x Gsp, even spotted a springer x vizsla but I fail to understand the point of these breed crosses and I don't accept accidents as really anything other than irresponsible.

I didn't know silver labs existed until around 18 months ago when surfing the Internet and up they came. Teryfiying prices but it seems we are in a market were dogs that are crossed are more expensive than some pure bred dogs.

But when I consider that my GSP were bred for characterics from 4 other breeds to create my GSP I am not snobby in anyway towards people introducing new blood or characteristics for the right reason and not profit.

An example I heard recently was of someone who struggled to sell jack Russell x chihuahua pups, suggested by someone on the net to readvertise them as jackahuahua's and they all sold within 24 hours

Strange thing fashion lol