"Ideal" conformation of the working Labrador

Discussion in 'Labrador breeding & genetics' started by JulieT, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Well, @Nade, I don't quite agree with all of that. although agree with some of it. :)

    I think the fact of the matter is that we don't really know how best to train show line dogs to work - there are so few of us trying. And we don't know if more of them worked and competed, how good they would be. The Working Gundog Certificate while it is massively harder than most people with working Labradors kept as pets will ever achieve, the working community look down their noses at it as 'easy'. I still do think it's a big step forward though. :)

    I also think that show line Labrador enthusiasts can't sit back, point to the breed standard, and say "there, that describes a dog fit for purpose". We only have legitimacy in saying that if we can explain WHY the breed standard does that. For example, it is insufficient to say "x angle should be 90 degrees" if we can explain WHY. :)
     
  2. Nade

    Nade Registered Users

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    The bolted... that is why we have the clubs. Because usually they are the ones organizing the conformations and field trials. In Serbia(which is country next to mine) we have a lot of breeders who hunt with their dogs and show them. I see that in the States as well. Many conformation dogs are successful in the field as well. For the basic working trial that is asked from FCI, its not really hard for the owner to teach his dog. I will try to find youtube links for you. I have the written thing, but its not in english.
     
  3. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Do you have such a thing as a dual champion in Serbia, @Nade? By that I do not mean a show champion with a working certificate, I mean a dog with both champion show and field wins?
     
  4. Nade

    Nade Registered Users

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    Yes.
     
  5. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Can you post the details/links to these dogs?
     
  6. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    For interest here are the J Regs which after a lot of faff about how to run a trial describe what judges are looking for, what constitutes eliminating and serious faults and what are points of merit.

    Many of the elements are associated with training eg steadiness but others are more nature rather than nurture eg natural game finding ability.

    http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/49562/ftregs.pdf
     
  7. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Next I have a question. I've read the links you've put in on the standards @JulieT and I see a description of conformation but no guidance on angles. How do we translate that standard into angles or ranges of angles?
     
  8. Nade

    Nade Registered Users

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    I remmember one dog for sure, his name is Dual Ch Amadeus (Mallorn's Shaggydog Story x Bianka). I cant really find more info because this was quite before my time in labradors. I am still searching
     
  9. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    If you look in the Australian standard you'll see reference to 90 degree angles. That's the same as in the book 'what's your angle' - and I read that because of you! :) I tried very hard to explain that in the dots thread! Only to be told that wasn't relevant to working line dogs.....it was all about looks.

    I don't think the 90 degree angle is the end of it, or even the start. But it's something - I suppose my challenge (in the spirit of the debate) is does the working dog enthusiast have something better? :)
     
  10. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Was this dog 2 decades ago? I think that's a bit more recent that the UK, but only by 10 years or so....
     
  11. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    I never said angles weren't relevant to working line dogs. I completely believe that conformation in terms of angles is relevant and a long term health issue. I apologise I missed the Aus standard and read the UK one and another link(which I can't check cos it's the page before this one gggrrr)

    I didn't read the book! I thought you'd love it, that's why I suggested it to you :)
     
  12. Nade

    Nade Registered Users

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    I found him, he was born 2002 and passed away 2013.
     
  13. Nade

    Nade Registered Users

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    Another dog, that is also dual ch is Areta from the Blind Man Strite, She is Pepas grategrandmother. Unfortunatelly she passed away. She was one year younger than Amadeus.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Aha! So, you see, now I've read it, I can relate the breed standard and requirements of angulation to the performance dog. :)

    And what I really want now is those with supposedly performance dogs to put their money where their mouth is, and try to educate everyone in what makes a performance dogs!
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
  15. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I'm really sorry to say this @Nade - in case it sounds blunt, or rude - but if that's really a dual champion, I'll eat my hat. There is no way that dog meets my idea of what the breed standard specifies in terms of an athletic, agile dog, and no way I'd believe it could win a Field Trial. It is far too heavy and far too short of leg.
     
  16. Nade

    Nade Registered Users

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    She is not heavy, she is just bonny. If you think she is heavy, do take a look at todays American lines. And just to show you that she really hunted....her owner almost gave up the breed after loosing her. She was a big name and really once in a life time dog.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Oberon

    Oberon Moderator Forum Supporter

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    The dog in the pic above, Areta, gives the appearance of having extremely short legs. But if you look at where the elbow is you can see that the leg length is fine. The appearance of shortness comes from the very low slung undercarriage, which extends below the line of the elbow. I'd say that's just fleshiness and that the underlying structure (rib cage) ends at a point much higher up. I'll be honest (and sorry in advance for saying it as I know your dog is related to this dog, Nade) but I'm not a fan of that low slung undercarriage and the appearance of shortness that it gives. It gives a look that is not athletic. Again, sorry for my direct opinion.
     
  18. Nade

    Nade Registered Users

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    That is ok guys, that is taste. And you cant argue about taste. She is an example for a lot of dogs. And she was considered like a great example for her time. Americans( I mean the dogs :D) nowadays... well thats too much.
     
  19. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    She looks lighter, and better, in the other photos - although I'd still say she looks short of leg even from other angles and not a dog that I think is a good example (I'm really sorry if this sounds rude to you, but I am as honest in describing the faults of my own dog, who is very far from perfect). In the first photo, she does not look at all athletic - she just looks heavy. And photos of dogs with a bird in its mouth doesn't prove much.
     
  20. Nade

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    No, I dont mind :D As I said that is taste. I personally like deeper chest(but not too much) and I like dogs that have more structure. That is why I like the Scandinavians. The english lines, well what you would consider good, is type that I dont like.
    [​IMG]
    Unfortunatelly not many pictures I could find. IF I can I will ask the owner if he has a video from her and if he is willing to share it.

    When speaking about heavy...
    [​IMG]
     

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