At two working tests we've lost points because Poppy was out of my sight and didnt listen to my recall whistle or the stop whistle. So I've been attempting to do some training to redress this. It seems my body language is just as important to her as the whistle. The first thing I did was to teach her that the recall whistle means 'come here now', whether she can see me or not! It appears that when she hears the recall whistle, she normally looks at me for a physical cue (which is that I hold my hands out slightly to the sides). So on our morning walk, I've been getting her to sit and wait while I walk on 50 yards or so, then I go out of sight and recall her. At first she didnt come back, but after a couple of times she got the idea, and I rewarded her with a treat. The next move was to incorporate this into a retrieve. I threw her tennis ball, then had her walk beside me along the path for about 50 meters, then sat her down while I walked on another 50 meters and went out of sight. Then I recalled her, and once she arrived I sent her back for the memory retrieve (which was her reward). This is working very well now. OH and I have done some practice with the stop whistle out of sight - he threw a dummy behind a bush, then picked it up without Poppy seeing. I sent her for the retrieve, let her hunt for a bit, then blew the stop whistle. The idea was that as soon as she stopped hunting and waited for the next command, she would immediately get a retrieve thrown for her, but we couldn't get our coordination right and it ended in a bit of a row... : This morning I practiced the 'get back' from out of sight. Threw her tennis ball, walked on with her 50 meters, sat her down and walked on 20 more meters and went behind a tree. Then I gave her the verbal 'get back' cue (normally associated with a hand cue). At first she just sat there, but after the second verbal command she got the idea and shot off for the memory retrieve. We did it again later on the walk, and this time it worked even better. So generally I would say the training for commands when out of sight is going pretty well - except for the stop whistle out of sight, where I and OH have to get our act together more. Any suggestions?
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me I'm very interested to see what the more experienced workers amongst us suggest. Our current trainer is of the opinion that when the dog is out of sight your only useful command is recall as you can't actually tell what they're doing or where they are in relation to where you want them to be. This seems eminently practical and sensible to me but as usual I'm prepared to be wrong Then when they're in sight again you would stop them and do whatever you want to next - redirect etc. So I wasn't planning to use a stop when the dog isn't in view...... With the stop exercise you're trying to do......can OH see Poppy and you? If so then he should throw the dummy when her bum hits the ground to an agreed spot e.g. 10m to the left of Poppy so you know where to send her or withing 5m so you know to hunt her on. Then he can raise his hand when you should give the command. I guess therein lies my problem with the out of sight stuff though.....how would you decide what to do if OH wasn't there?
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me I think this is very interesting - I am sure I'm quite rubbish with cues, and Charlie has all sorts of cues that I don't know about! I really need to do more of this kind of thing. I saw a vid on youtube where the trainer left a dog and a camera in a room, went out and closed the door, then said "sit". The dog did. I'd put money on Charlie not though... The last but one trainer I went to (that makes me sound like I go through trainers...) always impressed me by blowing her stop whistle from the field - if her dogs were barking in the kennels - and every last one of the 15 dogs would sit down and be quiet. Made me feel very inadequate!
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me The reason I want the stop whistle to work out of sight is because Heidrun suggested it! ;D When Poppy is hunting out of sight it is difficult to get her to recall, and Heidrun felt that getting her to STOP would be the first step. Then let her wait and calm down for a couple of seconds, then recall her. Yes, in the setup OH and I were doing he could see both Poppy and me, and what you describe is what we were trying to do. But with only moderate success as our timing was out. Maybe I need to ask my trainer to help. Julie, I think it is amazing the physical cues we give without even realizing it! And actually dogs are more likely to respond to physical cues than verbal ones, as that is primarily how they communicate.
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me [quote author=Karen link=topic=8997.msg128409#msg128409 date=1417777262] Julie, I think it is amazing the physical cues we give without even realizing it! And actually dogs are more likely to respond to physical cues than verbal ones, as that is primarily how they communicate. [/quote] I think this is so true with me and Charlie. The amount of time I think "hey, I didn't yet give the cue for you to go do that, come back here so I can give you the cue you are supposed to be learning before you go". He's waaaay ahead of me on my unconscious cues... ;D ;D ;D
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me Barbara, with a spaniel you will definitely need a stop whistle out of sight. It is very possible for the dog to flush whilst on the other side of a hedge or a big rhododendron bush or generally out of sight and you want the dog to sit to flush. With a young dog I always reinforce the sit to flush with my stop whistle until the actual flush becomes the cue for the dog to sit. So whenever a bird goes up I blow my stop whistle regardless of the dog being in sight or not.
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me [quote author=heidrun link=topic=8997.msg128417#msg128417 date=1417779134] Barbara, with a spaniel you will definitely need a stop whistle out of sight. It is very possible for the dog to flush whilst on the other side of a hedge or a big rhododendron bush or generally out of sight and you want the dog to sit to flush. With a young dog I always reinforce the sit to flush with my stop whistle until the actual flush becomes the cue for the dog to sit. So whenever a bird goes up I blow my stop whistle regardless of the dog being in sight or not. [/quote] Cool our stop whistle is coming along I think so that's good. I can totally picture the "what happens next" if you stop the dog to flush. You know roughly where the dog is as that's where the bird has come from and I'm guessing the dog although out of sight isn't actually that far from you(hopefully : ). So next actions would be to hunt on, recall or retrieve a mark? Or only some of those?
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me Karen, does she sit to the stop whistle with you in sight but without giving a visual cue i.e. putting your hand up? And will she remain sitting for quite some time? The most common problem with sitting to the stop whistle out of sight is the duration. Most dogs will stop momentarily but then without being able to see their handler they will make an executive decision and carry on hunting or run in on a retrieve. I sometimes have mine sitting mid hunt for a good ten minutes or so doing absolutely nothing but waiting for my next cue. In spaniel trials this would be a common situation. One dog sitting and waiting whilst the dog on the other side is on a retrieve or there is a change of dogs or whatever. The dog will have to be capable to sit and wait wherever it might be in relation to its handler. So first step is to lengthen the sit and wait that follows the stop whistle.
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me [quote author=bbrown link=topic=8997.msg128418#msg128418 date=1417779775] [quote author=heidrun link=topic=8997.msg128417#msg128417 date=1417779134] Barbara, with a spaniel you will definitely need a stop whistle out of sight. It is very possible for the dog to flush whilst on the other side of a hedge or a big rhododendron bush or generally out of sight and you want the dog to sit to flush. With a young dog I always reinforce the sit to flush with my stop whistle until the actual flush becomes the cue for the dog to sit. So whenever a bird goes up I blow my stop whistle regardless of the dog being in sight or not. [/quote] Cool our stop whistle is coming along I think so that's good. I can totally picture the "what happens next" if you stop the dog to flush. You know roughly where the dog is as that's where the bird has come from and I'm guessing the dog although out of sight isn't actually that far from you(hopefully : ). So next actions would be to hunt on, recall or retrieve a mark? Or only some of those? [/quote] Yes, the next command depends entirely on the situation. If the next command is to retrieve, the handler has to decide if the dog has marked the fall or not. If I think the dog hasn't been able to get a mark on the bird I need to recall first until dog is back in sight and then go from there.
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me [quote author=heidrun link=topic=8997.msg128421#msg128421 date=1417780319] Karen, does she sit to the stop whistle with you in sight but without giving a visual cue i.e. putting your hand up? And will she remain sitting for quite some time? The most common problem with sitting to the stop whistle out of sight is the duration. Most dogs will stop momentarily but then without being able to see their handler they will make an executive decision and carry on hunting or run in on a retrieve. [/quote] Ah Heidrun - as usual you are right on the button. At present Poppy stops at the whistle, but then looks to me for the next direction. When she sees me with my hand up, then she sits, or follows the cue for left, right or back. So I suppose the next step for me would be to make sure she understands the stop whistle means STOP AND SIT, whether she can see me or not, and then WAIT as long as it takes until she gets the next command. The good thing is that once she has stopped and is sitting, that she will wait there for as long as it takes. At least while I am in sight. Not sure what she would do if she couldn't see me and was expected to sit quietly for several minutes.
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me [quote author=heidrun link=topic=8997.msg128423#msg128423 date=1417780566] Yes, the next command depends entirely on the situation. If the next command is to retrieve, the handler has to decide if the dog has marked the fall or not. If I think the dog hasn't been able to get a mark on the bird I need to recall first until dog is back in sight and then go from there. [/quote] I guess that's kind of where our trainer was coming from as this was entirely in the context of retrieving. If the dog is in the right place and holding their area or has marked the bird they don't need your help and have more information than you do. If not you need to get back to a known point, in sight of each other and start again, that might be all the way home or part way with a stop and redirect. We put 12 dummies down for 6 dogs in a small bit of woodland on Monday and all we could do was get the dogs in, start them hunting and leave them to it. A couple popped out and they were stopped and sent back in. Very occasionally you could see a dog stop and look for help when they were either pushed one way or the other or just encouraged to hunt on. Mostly you could hear them hunting but you couldn't see them. (it was interesting how different a hunting dog sounded to one just legging it round too!) Needless to say my new yellow friend didn't need any help from me and was so fast out and back that half the class thought we hadn't had our go 8) blimey what a dog!! Riley and I are still working on our stop whistle in view but I can see how over training (running 10 miles when you need to race 5 or stopping out of sight even if unlikely (for the lab)) can really help. If you're always operating at your limit things may go pear shaped but if you're well within your limits you may keep the wheels on ;D ;D ;D
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me Loving this thread.....the exploring of the nuances and subtleties that you start to get into and the different way even very experienced people train ;D or maybe it just seems that way to me because I haven't got a clue ;D ;D ;D
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me Another point is that recently when training, I stopped Pops at a distance and then tried to send her over to the left. OH was standing near her, and he said he couldn't see clearly what signal I was giving as I didnt stand out clearly against the backdrop. I know some people teach a voice command for 'left' and 'right' for situations like these and was wondering whether it is worth the bother... I suppose I could just use the word 'LEFT' whenever I send her to the left, and 'RIGHT' for a send to the right... Eventually she might pick up what each command means. Excuse the stream of consciousness talking here!
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me Steve Kimberley (trainer down Devon way) does that and his German longhaired pointers will go left or right based on voice alone - very cool 8) and he likes to tell the story of how, in a trial, he stopped his dog out of sight behind a bush and then sent it left whereupon it picked. It's tricky when you and the dog are learning and training but I also wondered about the ultimate goal of quite quiet handling. On Monday I gave the yellow dog a lot of visual commands with no voice at all as I know that's how my trainer prefers to handle his dog and as I was just having a quick lend I thought I should try and be consistent. He saves his voice for added emphasis when the dog isn't quite getting it or is getting stuck. I guess you just need all those tools available to you so you can choose the right one at the right time ;D
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me On standing out visually I think that's where the waved hankies come from or you sometimes see people wearing light caps that they take off and wave.
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me I said I didnt want any doggy Christmas presents this year - but I might make an exception and ask for a pair of light coloured gloves so my hands can be seen at a distance! Cant be doing with hankies or the silly white cuffs.
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me [quote author=Karen link=topic=8997.msg128448#msg128448 date=1417787371] I said I didnt want any doggy Christmas presents this year - but I might make an exception and ask for a pair of light coloured gloves so my hands can be seen at a distance! Cant be doing with hankies or the silly white cuffs. [/quote] Totally with you on the hankie thing.....I think I'd feel like some weird Morris dancer who's lost his mates! and I know Mr Halstead jr is a complete legend but I don't think I could pull off waving my hat around - he clearly can - me? not so much ;D
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me [quote author=bbrown link=topic=8997.msg128449#msg128449 date=1417787517] Totally with you on the hankie thing.....I think I'd feel like some weird Morris dancer who's lost his mates! [/quote] ;D ;D ;D
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me I'm getting lots if tips from this thread. Thank you. Our recall out of sight is not bad at all. Probably better than when in sight. :. I don't think I've tried my stop out of sight. I will give that a go and make them wait longer after the stop like Heidrun has suggested. Sorry I can't be of any use with advice but please keep going I'm learning loads.
Re: I'm training - obey commands even when you can't see me I think it's really interesting to try giving commands without any physical cues - keep your hands in your pockets or whatever - and to see how that goes with your dog. And indeed, as Barbara says, to try some commands with physical cues only, hardly using your voice or whistles at all.
