Is inbreeding coefficient of 9.5% a deal breaker?

Discussion in 'Labrador breeding & genetics' started by Sal, Aug 3, 2016.

  1. Sal

    Sal Registered Users

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    Hello,
    I am looking at a girl puppy. Dam & Sire both have good scores for hips/ elbows/ eyes and have good pedigrees (FTch in both, from well respected dogs/ breeders I recognise, having done a fair bit of research) Spoke to the breeder last night and she seems very caring, responsible individual. She is not a breeder by trade but owns the Dam as a working dog and wants a puppy from her so only breeding this one litter. The only sticking point is I calculated the COI using the KC website and it came up with 9.5% (breed average 6.5%). In some ways it doesn't surprise me as there is a little overlap in their ancestors though on paper not too close. Should I be concerned about the COI of 9.5% even if the dogs seem healthy?
    Thanks for your help.
     
  2. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

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  3. Sal

    Sal Registered Users

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    I had read that article and it still left me uncertain. Although the breed average COI is 6.5% , the dogs I am looking at are from working lines and dark yellow/fox red so I suspect the gene pool for these dogs is smaller than for labs as a whole. I really like the look of this litter and to be honest I wish I hadn't looked up the COI as maybe I'm worrying over nothing now. All other health tests are good and the Dam/Sire sound like they are of sound temperament, and chosen for that reason.
    I have also subsequently looked up the COI of another litter I was very keen on, from an experienced breeder, who's puppies are very much in demand, and that comes out at 10%!
    If I could have the opinion of an experienced breeder I would really appreciate it. Thanks
     
  4. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I rejected litter after litter because the CoI was too high - and held out for a puppy with below average CoI. It was heartbreaking letting litters go with too high CoIs, but my existing dog's CoI is a bit high, and he ended up with cruciate disease (the health scores of the parents were outstanding, but there is no test for cruciate disease) and it's obviously the case I think that the higher the CoI the higher the risk (nothing is certain, it's about risk) that you find you have a dog with problems. And there are many, many more genetic problems than there are tests....
     
  5. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Generally advice is look for something on or below breed average. If you're looking at rare breeds (my other dog is a Clumber spaniel) COIs much higher than this are the norm. The same would probably be true if you were to restrict yourself to less common colours such as the fox red variant of yellow or you wanted a chocolate working lab. Also if you stick to the very tip of the tree in trialling or show. Trialling cockers for example typically have high COI.

    Only you can decide if the trade off of COI is ok for the aspects you're focusing on.
     
  6. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

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    My two are from working lines, with FTChs in their not-too-distant past and they have a COI of 5.7%, so it's not impossible to get. Mine was more through luck than judgement, but when I get my next puppy, I'll definitely be after a low COI.
     
  7. Beanwood

    Beanwood Moderator Forum Supporter

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    My latest pup Bramble has a CoI of 2.3%, and family hip scores are very good (granddad has a hip/elbow score of zero. Must admit though looking at her hips I get nervous as they look odd to me. Benson has very low hip/elbow scores, and it has been suggested he would be good to breed from. We got down to 0 CoI with Benson mated to one of Brambles Aunties, with Bramble it was 2.4%.

    Interestingly Benson has a CoI of 9.5, from his parents. If I knew then what I know now I would probably have rejected him, I think it is a fluke really his hips and elbows are so good. The vet also commented on his bone quality, and said it was very understated the importance of exercise and appropriate diet on dogs, particularly labradors, reassuring as I was really, really careful and completely neurotic re: his diet and kept him slim as he was growing. As an aside I was relieved to see his Xrays, as he has had 2 suprelorin implants the first at just over 18 months.

    Personally, when choosing a pup, I would really want to see parents, and any grandparents around, have they been healthy? Do the breeders keep in touch with their pups? Any photos, stories, that sort of thing. I would study the health tests, CoI would also come into it, however I really would like to see the doggy family too.
     
  8. SteffiS

    SteffiS Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    I'm quite fascinated by this as it's something I've never thought about before.
    Looking up all my labs, Ripple is 9.4, my previous two were 12.8 and 6.9. The only one with any sign of health problems was Raisin with the CoI of 6.9, although both of my previous boys died quite early one at 8 years, and Raisin at 9 years.

    I met both of Ripple's parents and some of the previous litter from them, none appeared to have any health problems. In fact looking up Ripple's sire his CoI is 12.6.

    I think I've now given myself something extra to worry about :(.
     
  9. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    It does seem to be the case that Chocolates tend to have higher CoIs (not all, of course) and every orthopedic surgeon I've met says they see more chocolate labs than any other colour....and I don't think it's about the colour, I think it's about the CoI.

    Well, who knows? Who can know really...it's enough to make me buy a puppy with a low CoI though...
     
  10. Rosie

    Rosie Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Oh dear, yes me too. This had never crossed my mind but now of course I've checked out Pongo's dam and sire and found he has a CoI of 18 - really high!
    I think I'll just pretend I didn't look.

    :(
     
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  11. Sal

    Sal Registered Users

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    That's how I feel Steffi! There's so much to think of when you're looking for a puppy, it's making my head spin!!
     
  12. Sal

    Sal Registered Users

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    Thanks all for your comments so far. Lots of food for thought!!
     
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  13. Berna

    Berna Registered Users

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    This is interesting. How and where do you check your dogs' CoIs?
     
  14. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

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  15. Saba's Boss

    Saba's Boss Registered Users

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    Wow! Just checked out Saba's parentage, and he came out at 4.0% against the breed average of 6.5%. I had no idea this even existed. I knew the litter was bred for health and temperament, and that Mum and Dad had good hip/elbow/eye health, but that's as far as I went. I was happy enough to see that Mum, Grandma and Great-Grandma all had the most lovely manners, and that the pups were all well-socialised, happy, and well-cared for.

    Incidentally, Mum and Dad are expecting another litter :)
     
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  16. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

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    Is there another puppy in your near future? ;)
     
  17. Berna

    Berna Registered Users

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  18. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

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    Yes, sadly. I would have thought that other international kennel clubs would have a similar feature? But, again, undoubtedly only for registered pedigree dogs. Mixed breeds are (generally) bound to be very low CoI, anyway, although I suppose taking siblings from a mixed breed litter and mating them would give a large CoI...
     
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  19. Sarah B

    Sarah B Registered Users

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    I've just checked the parents of the puppies we are looking at at the weekend and the result was

    Any puppies from this mating would have a coefficient value of
    15.1%

    What exactly does this mean?
     
  20. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    It means that the puppies from this litter are more inbred than the average Labrador.

    There is a good article here: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/breeding-for-health/inbreeding/

    These figures help, I think:

    Putting your COI result into perspective
    The COI calculator provides you with a percentage score; the lower the percentage, the lower the degree of inbreeding.

    Therefore, an inbreeding coefficient of:
    • 0% indicates a dog that comes from two unrelated parents, based on all available pedigree information
    • 12.5% would equate to the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a grandfather to granddaughter mating
    • 25% would equate to the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a father to daughter mating.
     
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