We seem to have had a lot of posts recently where people have commented on using the word "no". Of course, we all say "no" (or, in my case, more likely, "fortheloveofallthatisholywillyoupleasestopdoingthat"); we can't help ourselves at times. But what role can, does, or should the word "no" play in actually training our dogs? Here is a great article from the Pet Professional Guild: https://ppgworldservices.com/2016/02/14/just-say-no-to-saying-no/ and another by Denise Fenzi: https://denisefenzi.com/2016/03/08/the-perfect-trainer/
I especially liked the article by Denise Fenzi (comforting to know that even the experts get it wrong sometimes) and agree that just because we make mistakes and naturally say 'no' sometimes, that it doesn't have a place in planned training. I'd been thinking recently that I need to remember to use trained cues when undesirable behaviour occurs. Molly is a shocker for barking at birds (seagulls and pigeons) in our back garden. I never leave her to bark and mostly just call her inside, but the other day I was sitting outside when she took offence at a pigeon who had dared to perch frustratingly just out of her reach. My reaction was, 'Oh for goodness sake shut up, it's not doing any harm!' Then I pulled myself together and said in an upbeat voice 'Sit' and she sat - and stopped barking.
I find myself saying no to Stanley a lot. But it just sort of comes out. Like when he's grabbing the washing off the line I'll run out like NOOOOOO! But it's more to myself than him. The other one that I do regularly is *sigh* Stanley man! Usually when he's destroying something or in tigger mode. I don't think it affects him - he never actively gets told off (by me anyway) so I think he just hears it as me making noise. I never use it as part of "training" it's more mouth moves before brain is engaged
It's a hard habit to break - I also let it slip out and like you say, it's more talking to myself than to the dog. I don't expect the dog to understand what my under-my-breath and pained "no, no, no no no" is supposed to mean. Boy, do I know this one. For Brogan, it was "C'mon DUDE". He knew when he heard "Dude" instead of "Brogue, sweetheart, boo-bear" etc. that mama wasn't a happy camper.
I think the biggest thing we came across is the amount of information out there, which after a while just starts to blur together and you can't remember where/who/what is correct at times. We have used the word 'no' in the context of emergency and so far only used it a few times and thinking back it was more of a panic no and not a harsh no (think that makes sense). Our nickname for when she is in trouble is 'Madam', and don't know why but she just knows and gives the look of 'OK I will stop (but maybe only for about 5sec. and if you are not quick enough I will start again)
Oh, I agree. It's a minefield when you start out. And some people are very persuasive in their arguments as to why we should do certain things ("it's what their mothers would do", 'it's what wolves do" etc). It is quite easy to simplify it, though, when you think in terms of behavioural science, without the jargon. Only two things will alter your dog's behaviour; reinforcement and punishment. You can't define what is rewarding and what is punishing, your dog does. For example, one person might find liquorice rewarding, others will hate it, making it punishing. If you popped a liquorice treat in my Dad's mouth every time he pushed a button, he'd be pushing that button till the end of his days. If you did the same to me, I'd avoid pressing that button. If something makes your dog more likely to repeat a behaviour, then that "something" is reinforcing. If something makes your dog less likely to perform a behaviour, that "something" is punishing. Remember, it's your dog who defines what is rewarding and what is punishing, so you can't say "saying 'no' isn't punishing" - the unarguable truth is that if it diminishes your dog's behaviour then it is, by definition, punishing. So, if you want to work in the context of LIMA (Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive), or "positive training" or "force free training", or whatever you want to call it, then you can look at each training suggestion and think "why will that make my dog change his behaviour?". In the case of "no", it generally has zero impact when bandied about in a neutral tone of voice. As explained in the articles, it has no meaning to your dog, and is just white noise. So there's no point in saying it, but there's also no harm. When people say, "say no in a firm voice", though, well... let's just look at the above. Is it going to make your dog more likely to repeat a behaviour? Or Is it going to make your dog less likely to repeat a behaviour? This depends entirely on the dog. There are three possible scenarios, and we get all three being talked about on the forum. Consider the biting puppy, who has been told "no" in a firm tone. "I told my puppy 'no biting' in a firm voice and it didn't make a difference!" - To this puppy, "no biting" is neither rewarding, nor punishing. So you may as well not bother. In order to make it work, the owner would have to make it more punishing - louder, sharper, with physical intimidation, or backed up with physical punishment. "I told my puppy 'no biting' in a firm voice and it just riled him up more!". - As the behaviour escalated, it shows that, in this case, "no" is reinforcing - the owner is rewarding the puppy with attention and/or the puppy thinks the owner is playing. Bad luck. In order to make it work, the owner would have to make it more punishing - louder, sharper, with physical intimidation, or backed up with physical punishment. "I told my puppy 'no biting' in a firm voice and it worked!" - As the behaviour was diminished, it shows that, to this puppy, saying "no" in a stern voice is punishing. There are many potential issues with this, though. - A reduction of trust between puppy and handler; he was just playing and he got punished for it! - A lack of understanding of what he was being punished for; dogs can't rationalise in the same way as humans, so, as much as it may seem obvious to us that he should know he was being punished for biting, he may make the association with being on that particular spot of floor, or using his front teeth instead of his back teeth, or rolling on his back at the time, or, or, or... - Mainly, though, that the puppy will probably learn that the threat that you just gave in the tone of your voice, wasn't backed up by anything worse. So, he'll start to ignore that tone in time. The owner has a choice to either find a different method, or, since it worked before, to escalate. In order to make it work, the owner would have to make it more punishing - louder, sharper, with physical intimidation, or backed up with physical punishment. You can see there is a common thread running through all of these options. However, if it "just works" without ever escalating, you cannot get away from the fact that you are still punishing your dog. That's what defines punishment - something you do that makes a behaviour less likely to occur in the future. Me? I prefer to train my dogs by finding behaviours I want to reinforce than by punishing those I want to diminish. When there's the option to do the former, I don't know why anyone (who understands this) would choose to do the latter.
Wisdom as usual. Given this is our first dog there was a lot to learn, but I always said 'will treat the dog the same way as I would want to be treated' (same for any engagement I have with the human kind). We did/still do plenty of research and at times I am horrified with what people would do to get a behaviour. I know 'clicker training is not quick, versus other methods (so it seems can't actually verify this personally). But the engagement I have with Vanilla far far outweighs anything. I look at it more of a partnership rather than Me=Boss, Dog=Servant (could not think of a different word). My wife has commented on how much I am reading on all the dog stuff. In all the time she has know me (which is a long time) she has only ever seen me read 2 books. Since we have had Vanilla and a few months prior I have read more books, articles etc. and taken an interest. On a slightly different note, we had some friends come round. She turned round and said when she dies she wants to come back as a Labrador and live with us. as Vanilla is so well behaved and looked after, yet not once have we had to use force just C&T. She proceeded to tell us about her sister and her Labrador, who is about 3years old now. They have no control over it and he unfortunately gets slapped, shouted at etc. when he is doing something wrong. This has caused plenty of argument between the two off them. She is going to be looking after the Lab for about 2 months, so we decided to train him and see what we can do in that period. We just want him to have a better time, and somehow try and train the sister and her husband when they get back.
Looking into my magical crystal ball, I predict the dog will be much easier to train than the humans in the equation. Fingers crossed, you'll make a huge difference in his doggie life. Maybe your friend could end up keeping him after the two months? Sounds like she would be a better home for the poor pup!
WE have neighbours who yell out the dog's name. SPARKY. Sparky charges his neighbour on the other side, barking (barky Sparky) furiously and sounds vicious. Most of the time the eejit owners say nothing. If they have have company they yell SPARKY. He has never been shown what that means, what he should do instead. For God's sake, there is a park right behind all of us and Sparky charges little kids, and they let him. They use his name the way some people (no one here) use NO. I know they aren't the only dog owners who do this. I yell at Oban, HEY. Our field trainer says no. Both of us agreed we say it as a quick way of warning the dog - FREEZE. Whatever you are doing or were thinking of doing, DON"T. Then we say what should be done instead. We always follow up with instructions and we don't overuse it. It does come in handy, especially since we try to not yell a lot otherwise. But I agree with the thread, it has no value if not taught and is overused by some.
We hope so as the pictures we have seen he does look a bit down. There is talk about this as they are planning on moving abroad for 12months+. So who knows...
It's takes time and patience but I conditioned my lab to the word "no". He now fully understands what that means when I say it, which is stop what ever the heck you're doing. No need to yell or be angry when I say it. Thing is as he is nearing the age of 2 I say it less and less and he has learned what is expected of him. Of course, he's not perfect, but he has a better understanding of his place in the family.
I've never used "no". Coco hasn't been trained to understand it. But this morning, I was so mad at Coco's pulling for invisible prey, and my "for f**** sake Coco just f****** heel, there's no f****** rabbits we'll f****** go home if you don't stop f****** pulling" had absolutely zero effect Coco hasn't been trained to f****** understand! We got there, in the end, with a lot of stopping and sitting So glad there was no-one near.
This evening, it was too hot to go out until about 9pm. Luna was stir-crazy, despite doing lots of training bits and bobs inside with her. She grabbed my grown-from-seed Bulgarian Carrot chilli plant, that I was so excited had started to fruit. And broke it in two. The smaller bit in the pot. There were some choice words, and "no" was the least of them But, it's not training, it's just GAGH! I learnt. I should have given her a Kong. This is interesting. How do you express to your dog exactly what it is that he's doing that you want him to stop? If your dog is laying quietly on his bed by your feet, chewing your shoe, and you tell him "no", how does he know that is aimed at the chewing of the shoe, and not the laying quietly on his bed, by your feet? I wonder what you mean by "conditioned"?
Oh hope you're not too disappointed about your plant. Its the worst when they get something that you cared about.
Meh, I'll grow another one next year. At the time, I was like, "Loooooooonnnnnaaaaaaa....noooooooooooooooo!!!!!". I even started to chase her, whilst actually saying out loud, "DON'T CHASE THE PUPPY!" But, hey, I have a challenge to try and bring it back to life. If it doesn't work, then I'll grow more from seed next year. Last year, W&S were monsters. This year, they're perfect. One chilli plant in the grand scheme of things is not a problem
It's is sad when they destroy something you think of as precious, but sometimes you find stuff not so important. All the time ive had my dogs ive learned to do without stuff and that i just dont need things I thought I did. I've felt freed by the destruction in an odd kind of way . Might not have been so happy about it sometimes but you live and learn.
@edzbird reading your commentary on the tram this morning started to laugh. Next second I get strange looks....
