LEGGED IT

Discussion in 'Labrador Training' started by charlie, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    It's 2 years today since we rescued Charlie although it feels like 22 years ;D after a lot of thought and deliberation David and I decided to take a leap of faith and let Charlie off lead in a place he is used to and that we can see him. He legged it and was gone for 20 minutes chasing every bird he could see :( :'( Our conclusion is NO amount of training, gambling effects with treats, etc. etc. etc. is ever going to make a damn difference to this dog. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

    Sorry Pippa but Charlie FAILED Total Recall and so have we. :'(

    Helen x
     
  2. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Big hugs and licks from us Helen.
     
  3. Lisa

    Lisa Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    :( :( :'(Oh Helen I am so sorry to hear this! How discouraging and frustrating for you. I wish I had a magic wand that could solve this for you, or advice that is more expert, but as I don't, I can only send you my sympathy and support. Hugs from here, too. :'( :'( :'(
     
  4. drjs@5

    drjs@5 Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Not sure what to say :(
    20 mins is better than an hour?
    He DID come back?
    Sorry you feel so disappointed but remember all your hard work HAS made a difference.
    Don't give up :(
    {{{Hugs}}}
     
  5. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    I agree - you've made a MASSIVE difference to Charlie!

    I know you're not where you want to be and for that I'm really sorry but you HAVE helped Charlie be better.

    I hope you get to see what we all see and you feel justly proud of how far you've come.

    Big hugs from us x
     
  6. lynnelogan

    lynnelogan Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    i am so sorry,.....i know you have been working on it none stop for 10 months, my heart goes out to you

    you should be proud of yourself :)
     
  7. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Hi Helen, I am so sorry for you, because I know how hard you have worked. But Charlie really did not fail Total Recall.

    You need to ask yourself what went wrong.

    How far away was Charlie when you blew the recall whistle?
    What was he doing?
    How long had he been doing it for?
    How long had his attention on you been slipping for?
    Was this a situation you had trained for? Or were there new factors or distractions involved?


    Usually when we have a setback it is because we pushed the boundaries too far. Going over what happened can help you to avoid it happening again.

    We have talked about how Charlie will always need some kind of management strategy. This is doubly important if you exercise him where there are birds or animals to chase, and 'managing' him is not something you can just 'switch off' after a set amount of training. How far you can let him get away from you without losing control is a matter of judgement and learning from his behaviour in the past. And sadly that zone of control, within which you need to keep a dog, may never, for Charlie, be very large.

    Don't be disheartened, you have made huge progress, and are making progress still.

    Pippa
     
  8. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Hi Pippa,

    How far was Charlie when I blew my recall whistle - he had covered 2 fields in about 30 seconds - no point in recall at all.
    What was he doing? - chasing birds
    How long had he been doing it for? - 20 long minutes
    Charlie's attention is NEVER on us in uncontrolled situations - NEVER EVER he is always surveying the horizon - ALWAYS
    1 whole year of constant training

    Charlie doesn't allow any time for management strategy as he is gone quicker than the blink of an eye.
    There is no where else to exercise him where there is no animals to chase as we are rural without any off lead parks, we have no choice.
    There is no zone for Charlie I just wish you could see for yourselves how difficult he is. The very SECOND his lead is off he is OFF and doesn't look back.

    We are very, very disheartened, as far as we are concerned no progress has been made because he still legs it no matter what we do and we are tired. We should have returned him to the rescue centre many months ago, this situation is causing us a lot of stress now.


    Helen :'( :'( :'(
     
  9. Dexter

    Dexter Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Oh Helen,I've got a horrible feeling in my tummy for you,it's awful to read you so down heartened.
    You HAVE made progress,your training HAS had an effect ....he came back sooner,he would have been gone for so much longer before.I don't think you can see how well you have done because you haven't achieved what you want to achieve......the guarantee of a reliable recall and Charlie being the dog that will walk leisurely along with you and Hattie.I think he is a dog that will always need to be supervised,only you and your family can decide if you can cope with that responsibility and I am so sad for you to be in the position where it looks like you are having that conversation.I hope with all my heart that Charlie stays with you,I could cry at the thought of the alternative.....
    Don't make any rash decisions,you have been this fed up before and rallied.....you know whatever you decide you have got friends on here that will understand and support your decision,
    My very best wishes
    Angela xxxx
     
  10. Alice

    Alice Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    How disappointing - you must be gutted.
    Alice
     
  11. Stacia

    Stacia Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    You may find that because he has been constrained on a long line, that the first time he is let of he legs it. On simpler terms, my 20 month Lab was recently castrated and he had to have 7 days on the lead, the last four were on an extended lead, so he did have a little freedom. However, when let off for the first time he ran and ran and it took him a week to get it out of his system. This may be the same for Charlie.

    There must be somewhere where there are no birds? I walk on a common in the countryside and rarely see a bird, especially this time of year. There were some swallows on the top the other day unusally, which my GSPs used to chase, by having no chance to catch them it taught them the futility of chasing. The Labs didn't appear to even see the swallows!!!! On the other part of the common no tweety birds at all.

    If Charlie has some Pointer in him, he is never going to be like a Lab and walking close. I got used to my GSPs being a fair distance away on walks, though they were always aware where I was. Maybe Charlie will learn to recall and you can send him off again and you will get used to the distance? How did he get into the second field, was there a gate or did he get through the fence?

    I do feel for you. You have done your very best and no-one could have put as much work in him as you have.
     
  12. Stacia

    Stacia Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    PS Yes, I do understand how Charlie can disappear in a trice, I have been known just to blink my eyes and the German Pointers have disappeared in that brief tenth of a second :(
     
  13. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Helen, you seriously have made amazing progress with Charlie.

    I know this may sound blunt or defeatist, but if he was my dog I'd keep him on his long line at all times, unless I was in a fenced area that he couldn't get out of. That'd be my management strategy. But I know how keenly you want to be able to have both your dogs off lead on walks....

    It's a real shame that there are no organised dog sports in your area (it seems). That sort of thing would be perfect for Charlie. I think he'd excel at a sport like Agility.
     
  14. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Thank you Stacia, I have thought for a while that the long line has been the problem, but as this is how he behaved a year ago nothing has changed and I am not sure it will, so getting it out of his system is quite unlikely with Charlie mores the pity, but maybe I will just test him and see. Unfortunately there is nowhere round here to walk like a common, we have checked our maps over and over. There is also nowhere without birds which drive him crazy, and yes so do the Swallows more than any other kind. The worst is yet to come with shooting season just about to start :( It seems there are birds, birds and more birds. I think there is really no doubt that Charlie has Pointer in him which his behaviour confirms, he goes a fair distance but he does know where we are and will eventually return, but I can't cope with that it's just too worrying. I was mistaken it was one huge field so he just kept going, but thinking back on this little adventure I did blow a loud recall whistle which he was heading back on when a bird caught his eye and he chased it ::) I panic when he goes off and forget my training which really doesn't help him - should I blow my whistle, he ignores then he's failed ..... :( Stacia thank you for understanding just how quickly he can disappear it really is in the blink of an eye which clearly you as a Pointer owner have witnessed.
    2 minutes last week, 20 minutes this week, next week ....

    Rachael, I simply cannot keep him on a long line as he always at the end pulling me which is quite dangerous for him and for me as I am a very petite 5 ft 4" weighing in at a hefty 7 stone ;) He is a crazy dog on lead when Hattie is off lead pinging around and he has pulled me over several times it just does not work. We are trying to have family walks and they always end up stressing us all out. I tried agility for months and all Charlie did was bark his way through it and made everyone else fed up with him including their dogs so we left which was a shame as he was really good at it. You name it I have tried it. Honestly I have enough to do with a large family to be putting so much time into a dog. :(

    Anyway you must all be sick to death of mine and Charlie's mishaps but I thank you as always for your support.

    Helen xx
     
  15. lynnelogan

    lynnelogan Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    personally i am never sick of hearing you :)
    we all need to vent our anger from time to time, its the right place to do it on this forum :)
    none of us have the perfect dog, :)
    you have got to do what is best for you and your family
    i have no advice to give to you,.....but i have a shoulder for you to cry on........you have been on my mind all day
     
  16. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Ah bless you Lynne I appreciate your thoughts. There is not perfect and then there's Charlie ::) Thank you. Helen x
     
  17. lynnelogan

    lynnelogan Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    i dont think i have seen a photo of charlie,......please post a photo......would love to see cheeky charlie :)
     
  18. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Helen, much as you love Charlie, and we all know you do, it must be really difficult to keep ending up in the place where you feel so stressed about a family walk with the dogs. If you - just for a minute - assume Charlie is always going to be the way he is, can you see a way you can manage this and for you all to be happy? If not, then would it make you and your family more unhappy to try find Charlie a new home? Or keep going as you are? I can see that the answer might be all options would make you very unhappy, of course. :'(

    I feel a bit bad mentioning finding Charlie a new home, but it seems to me it's your life too, and it's not necessarily the right thing to keep on being a hero about this (and there is no doubt that you have been), there must come a point where you and your family come first.

    Hugs and licks.
     
  19. Lisa

    Lisa Registered Users

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    Well, Helen, it's just so hard. I so feel for you!! :( :(
    I can't believe that all of your training has made no difference to this dog. It seems from what you're saying that he does have some awareness of you, and does think to come back, eventually. But obviously that "eventually" is the issue.
    One thing that was unclear from your post - you said you blew the recall whistle, and he was returning (hey, that sounds good to me!!) but then he got distracted by the bird. Could you have blown the "stop whistle" at that point? Or did you and it was ignored?
    I do see what Stacia is saying, as well, about Charlie having to adjust to a new "no training lead" reality. Perhaps you could test him a couple more times, and test that stop whistle, as well?? See if maybe the novelty of being without a training lead wears off and the joy of freedom isn't quite so overwhelming for him?
    I also wonder what would happen if both your dogs are off lead together - would Hattie be a further "magnet" to keep Charlie closer?
    I dunno, just throwing out some suggestions here.
    You and David know this dog the best, and how much more you can stand in terms of training, etc. None of us have been dealing with this day in and day out as you have. I hope you know you have my complete admiration for all that you have done to train Charlie - many people would have given up long before. Please don't think you are a failure - you are a star in my books!!
    Sending you hugs once again....and a virtual cup of whatever beverage that is relaxing and calming for you.... :-\
     
  20. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: LEGGED IT

    I do now remember you saying, Helen, that he is not pleasant to walk on a long line or lead, especially for a small person.

    I guess that what I was obliquely getting at was the scenario that Julie painted. It may be that getting Charlie to the point where he can be safely allowed off-lead is only achievable with a continued, very significant and focused effort (and with the expectation that walks will always involve constant readiness to moderate Charlie's behaviour). It's pretty clear, and 100% understandable, that the thought of that makes you despair, not want to forge ahead with new enthusiasm. So, it is a reasonable assumption that the only way to have walks that are safe for the dog and that don't involve the stress of having him disappear are to keep him on a lead or long line. And, as you've said, that has its significant drawbacks too. It's safe for him, but not really for you.

    You really have made a big difference to Charlie. He is not the dog you inherited - he is miles better than that now. You have thought him a lot, and everyone admires you for it (I sure do!!!). So, you will get absolutely no judgement here, whatever you decide to do with Charlie. Your happiness matters.
     

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