Re: LEGGED IT Helen , I cant add to what has already been said , just to say that we all care, a lot and that I am sad for you after the enormous effort you have put in , so sorry xx
Re: LEGGED IT Hi Lisa, no I did not blow the stop whistle because Charlie is not trained enough to have any effect just yet. The problem is I believe Charlie must have been a latch door dog in his first home in Ireland, as it were and this absconding behaviour is all he has known and I don't think it can be fixed. We kept him on lead for months when we got him teaching recall etc. let him off lead and he was gone. I know what you are saying about the freedom off the training line but I don't think that makes any difference to Charlie. Hattie was off lead and bless that girl she tries so hard to engage with him and she also tries to round him up and tells him off but she cannot keep up with him and gives up too He really has no interest in us or Hattie he just wants to run off no matter what and the time he is gone for just creeps up. It is so stressful standing in a field with children wondering if your dog is going to hurt himself or return. Charlie is the most fantastic dog truly he is, I trust him completely with my children and he adores us all (INDOORS) and we love him so much, he cannot get enough of us but that's where it ends. Someone, somewhere sure did not do this poor boy any favours and should be ashamed, although his original family put him in the pound to be PTS so what do they care :'( Sorry we really just don't know what else to do to help him after 2 long years. I cannot do this training any more. I have shelved Total Recall and my whistle. Helen x :'(
Re: LEGGED IT I don't know if this will help you Helen as you have heard it all before, and I completely understand that this kind of control is not how you want to lead your life. But perhaps it may be of help to others with hard hunting dogs. Some thoughts on absconding/chasing dogs. [list type=decimal] [li]Recall is only part of the solution[/li] [li]Establishing a zone of control, however small, is crucial[/li] [li]Transition from being on a lead to running free has to be gradual[/li] [li]Off lead time has to be managed[/li] [li]True 'free running' must take place in the absence of animals until or unless the dog has been taught to drop to flush [/li][/list] Recall is only part of the solution Teaching a dog a reliable recall is essential in order to keep bringing a dog back into the zone of control, but with a hard hunting dog it is only part of the solution. I have seen many dogs like Charlie over the years and it is not such an uncommon problem. Most of the ones I have come across are springers. It is hard to overestimate the distress that dogs like these can cause to their families Establishing a zone of control This is the area within which you have your dog's attention and focus. And with a hard hunting dog that has learnt to have fun on his own, to begin with it may be tiny. Transition from being on a lead A long line is normally used trailing on the ground. This gives the owner some control as it can be picked up when the dog becomes distracted or is about to 'bolt', it is also useful in recall training. With absconders, the long line is not left trailing at first but we hold on to the end. Over a period of time, the handler can drop the end of the long line for short periods of time, and gradually increase these, as the dog progresses. Once the dog is successfully obedient on a 'trailing' long line, then it is quite a good idea to 'fade' the line by chopping a bit off each day. Long lines are not without their disadvantages, and can cause injury by tripping people up etc. But there are essential equipment for an absconder. Many absconders view having their lead 'unclipped' as a signal to bolt. So it is important to transition away from the long line very gradually. If a dog is leaping about on the end of a long line that is being held by the handler, he is not ready to work 'offline'. Obedience on a trailing line comes first. Managing off lead time Once the dog is spending time off lead, it is crucial that this time is managed. This is just as important as the recall command training. Before you let a hard hunting dog off the lead, you should have a plan. You should know exactly what you want him to do. Is he expected to walk to heel? Is he being asked to retrieve? Heelwork, retrieving and quartering form the backbone of time management for a hunting absconder. This is very hard indeed for someone that just wants to go for a walk with a pet. And it calls into question the information provided by some of the organisations that rehome dogs with these kinds of problems True free running must be carefully planned Dogs that have learned to hunt and chase birds and animals, never, ever stop wanting to do so. So, if you want them to stay safe and close by, all truly 'free running' (i.e. you are not managing or controlling the dog's actions or directions) must take place in a place that is not teaming with wildlife. This could be a paddock or large garden. I exercise my dogs on a pheasant shoot so I am aware of the problems in the countryside. Like most gundog trainers, I clear an area of game before exercising a young spaniel. This means either hunting an older dog through it first, or stomping about in it myself. I appreciate that this is a bore and a drag for someone that just wants to go for a walk. Most of this information is in Total Recall, but perhaps I need to review how clearly it is stated. Helen, I agree with Julie, and I think I have said this to you before - you and your family must come first. I hope you don't hang up your whistle, but no-one here will think any the less of you if you feel you have come to the end of your tether. Pippa
Re: LEGGED IT We all feel for you Helen. And know that you have invested so much in Charlie :'( We think you have been a Star, and all admire your dedication to the boy. Something that Pippa said made me wonder..... [quote author=editor link=topic=2743.msg28068#msg28068 date=1380528822] Many absconders view having their lead 'unclipped' as a signal to bolt. [/quote] And I guess you have tried the "two lead approach" where you unclip his main lead but still have him on the long lead? I know it helped Lilly's tendency to bolt at the beginning of a walk when I tried it. The question is though, do you have the emotional energy to keep investing in the goal to get it working right for you? Keep in there Helen. Whatever you need to do, we are here for you :'(
Re: LEGGED IT Pippa, thanks for laying this out for me and others facing this problem. Establishing a zone of control - we have been trying and failing as Charlie cannot concentrate to enable this in REAL LIFE as he is CONSTANTLY SURVEYING THE HORIZON Transition from being on a lead to running free - we have been trailing the lead and letting him off lead for very short bursts of time for 3 months Managing off lead time - again Charlie cannot focus on us and we cannot get his focus no matter what we do It is completely impossible for us to free run him in the absence of animals as we live in the country and I wouldn't know where to start with teaching a dog to flush and I don't want to. Never, ever under estimate the distress that we are under with Charlie and anyone else with a dog like this. Training line has been the bane of our lives and I don't believe trains him at all just frustrates him, he goes to the end of it jerking his neck all the time and hurting us too. We let it trail he takes advantage. Managing time off lead - I know what I want Charlie to do but Charlie wants to do what he wants, he won't retrieve enough in REAL LIFE, cannot face quartering having read up on it. This is very hard for us and we are walking around in the dark unable to solve these problems as we don't have your experience. I cannot go onto someones land and clear it of wildlife which cannot be totally possible. Everyone else round here just walks their dogs none of this goes on and even swallows drive him crazy. I think I have said before that I have been to two well known gun dog trainers and all they could suggest for Charlie was an electric collar as in their opinion this was the only way. I cannot stress enough we don't want this for him and we just cannot seem to make progress in order for him to have a happy off lead life which is all we want for him no matter what everyone else thinks. He is a big, athletic dog and suffers being on the end of a damn 10 meter line which is why he goes crazy on it and I don't blame him. These guidelines are unrealistic for us to train Charlie the serial absconder as he is fondly known as, and of course you can't write a book especially for Charlie and us mores the pity We have failed because Charlie still absconds and no matter what anyone says we have. We are not looking for compliments it's the reality of the situation. Yes Charlie can do other things that he couldn't before but in the greater scheme of things they are just 'party tricks' and he can only perform in the garden and not even in there lately and they do not help with his absconding. I am sorry Pippa I would never want to be disrespectful as I have great respect for you, but it just hasn't worked for Charlie. The way I see it is, we let him off lead and hope for the best as many people do this whether it's right or wrong and he does always find us. Or we keep going driving ourselves into the ground and Charlie insane on the end of that 10 meters of "freedom" :'( I truly, truly believe it's too late for Charlie to learn these skills, his eyes glaze over and he becomes totally focussed on a tiny little bird in the distance and then that's it game over. We have worked meticulously through Total Recall, word for word, exercise by exercise for 1 year and the only section we skipped was calling from dogs as we no helpers and Charlie is not overly bothered by them anyway. We never deviated or taken any short cuts, having a son with Autism makes you live your life like that so it's not an issue for us. I am sorry to be blunt and negative, but 2 years of Charlie and do that to a person :'( We really don't know what to do for him. :'( Anyway enough chatter about Charlie the serial absconder : you all have your own dogs and lives to get on with and at least they all behave. Helen x
Re: LEGGED IT Charlie you sweet boy now you have made me cry A LOT :'( :'( :'( xxxxx Thank you Julie so much. Helen xxxxx :'(
Re: LEGGED IT although clearly we need work colour coordinating our house and dog ;D I always thought Riley was quite shiny but Charlie is like a gorgeous conker!! He's sooooooooooo shiny ;D ;D
Re: LEGGED IT Thank you Riley and Obi. Now I will have to postpone my walk with Hattie as my eyes are puffy and red from crying :'( :'(. What wonderful dogs you are and your mums too. Lots of love Helen xxxx
Re: LEGGED IT Rachael, you really need to tell Obi to tone down his eye make up! Debbie Harry by JulieTandCharlie, on Flickr
Re: LEGGED IT Tell me about it....I've tried hiding the eyeliner. Doesn't work. And now he wants Debbie Harry's tiara as well.
Re: LEGGED IT Thank you Lilly and for the picture of Charlie Your killing me now all of you. Thank you so very much. Helen xxxx :'(
