Thanks all - well Julie T, guess what, x rays show her hips are actually good!! It is her cruciate ligaments, as you mentioned, both knees are inflamed. They've taken a sample and I'm going back at 5.30pm to find out next steps. I have no idea about this- is it something that develops or can they do it through injury?! Glad its not her hips however - so thanks Mrs Vet for scaring me, but all the same still not a great outcome for my little princess. Only an hour and a half to wait....
Glad you're all done on the x-rays and it's not her hips. I'll leave it to the experts to talk cruciates. Big hugs for you both
I'm really sorry to hear this - it was the same thing that happened to Charlie. The good news though, is it can be fixed, and fixed so she is as good as new. Although it was a bit of a long journey, I now have a dog who is running around like a mad hooligan and nothing will stop him. You would honestly not know there had ever been anything wrong. It's a genetic disorder - it's a disease, properly known as Cruciate Ligament Disease, there is no genetic test for it, and how it transmits through the generations isn't understood, although in Newfoundland dogs recent studies claim to have made progress towards identifying the responsible gene. No doubt your vet will discuss all the options with you, but there are only two choices really - conservative management and restriction of exercise just about forever, or surgery. My own view is that surgery is by far the best option, and my own experience was that making that decision quickly, and minimising the time my dog spent using an unstable knee, gave me the best outcome. Best of luck with it all, no doubt you'll know more when you get back from the vets. Do let us know what they say.
I'm glad it's not her hips, but sorry it's not nothing. The good news is that you're in the best possible hands here with Julie, who has been through it all with Charlie and will be able to offer you loads of advice as you work out how to manage this.
Well at least you have some answers. Once you know what's wrong you can at least start to address it. Keep us posted, we are here to give you all the support we can!
What a day................ spent a long time (crying) at the vets. so yes although its not the hips, perhaps that may have been the better outcome and a total hip replacement. She has degenerative arthritis and yes Cruciate ligament disease- in both knees. Surgery will be happening soon (he's told me to go away for a week then go back having thought it through but I already know the answer) and he's talked through several options- lateral suture (wasn't recommended here) and either MMP or TTA. He said the latter two have very little difference between them in relation to risks etc but seemed to lean more on TTA. As she so young he has said surgery is the best outcome, however as she has arthritis - evident on the x rays, this will only worsen at what rate is unknown. He said on a 13month old dog it is rare but just very unlucky. so many things to think about. no more group walks, so need to re think my diary , plans , finances etc etc. Bella has 2 little shaved and dyes knees and is not very happy whimpering in between sleeping, think its the anaesthetic Did Charlie have one knee or both done Julie? I'm presuming he doesn't have degenerative arthritis too? I will be hounding you for information, although its horrible, it nice to hear a success story too
I'm really, really sorry - I so know how you feel. If I can help in anyway at all, let me know. Yes, Charlie is now fit and strong, and running around like nothing ever happened. He had surgery on both knees, but not at the same time. He completely ruptured his right knee ligament at 8 months, including meniscus damage. We had to wait until he was old enough to have surgery, at 13 months - the same age as Bella. He then had a part rupture of his left knee when he was 2 years old. I took the decision to have surgery immediately on his left knee, even though he was only 1/10 lame. I'm glad I did, his left leg is better now than his right. Although he is now fit, I'm careful with him - I split his exercise up into smaller chunks and I try to make sure his exercise is moderate. He does 2 hours a day in 3 walks though, so it's not like he doesn't get out plenty. I limit off lead walks with other dogs to one a week (he goes out on lead on individual walks with a dog walker) but I'm not all that happy with him playing for a long time with other dogs to be honest. I limit his retrieving, particularly marked retrieves, and I have him swim as a form of exercise as much as possible. He also gets good quality supplements, extra omega 3, and regular checks ups by physios, my vet and his surgeon. I do this to make sure everyone thinks Charlie's routine remains appropriate for him. Apart from that, I just get on with my life, and I let him get on with his. And I try not to worry. Charlie has no visible signs of arthritic changes in either knee, but arthritis will be present in both his knees - it's just the changes can't be yet be seen. But it's inevitable, arthritis and CLD are inextricably linked together. You need to remember though, that the purpose of the surgery is to stabilise the knee and reduce how fast arthritis progresses. This is key to keep in mind - no one can say how fast the arthritis will progress, but one major aim of the surgery is to slow the progression. An unstable knee, left untreated will develop arthritis at a much faster rate. So in a way, a major point of the surgery is to attempt to slow the progression of arthritis so, with a bit of luck, it doesn't become a major issue for years and years. Charlie had TTA surgery, but I would have been happy with a TPLO. I would not have been happy with any other procedure (but you must speak with the surgeon of your choice about this). I wanted a surgeon that had done 100s of the procedure that Charlie was going to have. I'd have chosen an experienced surgeon in TPLO, than an inexperienced surgeon in TTA. The experience of the surgeon is key in achieving a good outcome. I think the things for you to consider now are: Who is going to do the surgery? This is not an operation for a regular vet, you should be seeking a referral to the most experienced surgeon your insurance will pay for, or you can afford. You want to look for a "European Recognised Specialist" in orthopedics. How are you going to manage the rehabilitation? Careful, slow and diligent rehabilitation makes a massive difference to the outcome. What is the recommendation about operating on both legs at the same time? How much harder does that make the rehabilitation?
Thanks for all of these important considerations and explanations Julie . It makes more sense to me now. It was the specialist we saw at the hospital today- the vet we saw last night referred us there today , with my insistence! (same chain but different practices), so it would be one of those surgeons - but lots of questions to ask. They won't do both knees at once they said a few weeks in between at least. They don't do TPLO procedures, so its MMP or TTA if with them. He seemed quite experienced in TTA procedures. So sad as she loves her group walks and playing with her friends but needs must and things will have to change. physically exhausted so will have a good think about things again tomorrow. Thanks to everyone for all of your comments, help and thoughts. Bella just had a piece of pizza and is snoozing away ... spoilt
It's good you already have her in the hands of a specialist surgeon. That's really, really, good news. I'm not going to say it won't be a long road, but this is fixable, and there is every chance arthritis progression will slow post surgery, and she has every chance of a great outcome. There are no guarantees about what the long term future will hold (for any person or dog regardless of health problems), but there is every reason to think, after surgery, Bella's outlook will be good.
Believe me I've met charlie post op and he is one happy chappy with a great and enjoyable life. I'm sure Bella will be very happy too
You must be shattered. So emotionally exhausting. So much to process. The difference between veterinary surgery and human surgery is that it happens much more quickly, so the whole anxiety of waiting will be less. Thinking of you x
I'm sure you feel totally exhausted, you poor thing. It sounds like Bella is in good hands though and the eventual outcome will be a positive one. I've known a few dogs who needed cruciate repair on both knees and both had very active lives, and that was 15 years ago when techniques were much less advanced than they are now. You're not alone in this. And JulieT knows all there is to know about cruciate sand recovery.
What a rough time you've had, but looking at the positive's, you now know what's wrong, and where to go from here, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Your mind will probably be doing overtime going over everything, but try and keep as calm and relaxed as possible for Bella, she sound as though she's in good hands
This must be an awful time for you, just want you to know you have my best wishes. You now know what you both have to deal with, so go forward, and good luck Bella.
CDM I'm so sorry to read your bad news, feel free to cry as much as you like. There is no doubt about it you must be absolutely exhausted. It sounds to me like Bella is in such good hands. Mabel like Charlie has her exercise very carefully monitored (her problem is very severe Elbow Dysplasia). She is a year old tomorrow and will be going on a small walk with her two sisters something I thought would never happen. There will eventually be light at the end of the tunnel. I'm sure I don't need to say but use the forum to rant and rave. We all understand. Xx
Yes there is light at the end of the tunnel as Julie T, Pilatelover and numerous others can vouch for. Bella will be able to go on doggy walks and play with other dogs in the future, you just have to manage the exercise differently. Juno has ED and had surgery in March but since June we have been back on our weekly dog walks with our trainer where she has a fantastic time playing with her best friends and having good games of chase, muddy puddle dips etc. I just keep her exercise down the day before and the day after to reduce any impact. When first diagnosed though I would never have believed that we would get to the point we are now with a near normal doggy life.
Thanks everyone. Still feeling overwhelmed and upset but thinking about moving forward and how at least its been identified and treated now. The vet recommended fish oil- I felt stupid asking this but does he mean normal fish oil like we might have like the capsules?! He wasn't a fan of magnetic collars, but my mums dog has one for her arthritis and they swear by it and think its made a big difference so they've already ordered her one... bless them. I spoke to the insurance company today and they were really good. My policy is up for renewal in Jan though so I was advised to try and get both knees operated on before it lapses on the 8th as it will really effect my premiums, entitlements etc etc. I'm going to go back to the vets early next week and get the surgery booked in ASAP. Not sure how long we will have to wait in between operations but he didn't seem to think it would be too long. I just keep thinking how many people would have just rested their dog as I'm quite a worrier and Bella obsessed so it was I who wanted the x rays ASAP. I wonder how many dogs have it that people just don't know about. Interestingly, Bella has always avoided stairs , stiles and getting in and out of the dog walking van - I thought it was just fear but I'm thinking now it is perhaps because it was painful for her. She is being very clingy at the moment and keeps whining (unless she's eating!!!) I'm not sure if its because she is in pain from yesterday - they took some samples from her knees but they said it wasn't anything too intrusive?! or whether she's just recovering from the shock of been in the hospital all day - when I went to get her there were some dogs barking and whining so she may just be feeling a bit shocked and out of sorts I don't think she'll be keen to find out I'm taking her back there a few more times over the coming months. Another Q for Julie T- Does it just effect the back legs / knees or could this eventually effect her front legs/ elbows too??? I really hope she will be able to join the group walks at some point in the future again as I worry this could really effect her personality, she lives and breaths for fun play times with her friends but I know that I'm also going to be super paranoid forever more that she may damage herself again even months ahead when she's doing good. Being walked on lead most of the time wont be fun for her and short walks during the day will likely lead to boredom setting in when I'm at work. .As of next week the dog walker can offer private 30 minute visits for a little walk and company , it wont tire her out as much as her long hour runs , but needs must for now I need to start getting creative on ideas for restrictive exercise, think there was a topic on this here too, so I best get searching!! Thanks all
CDM Take a look at Julie T's thread on activities for dogs on restricted exercise, it's brilliant. It helped me enormously. Hopefully the link will work. http://thelabradorforum.com/forum/n...-things-to-do-for-dogs-on-restricted-exercise
It is just a knee thing, not an elbow thing. There is no connection between dysplasia and other joint problems, and CLD - they are totally different. Although, Charlie's elbows are not quite normal now and it's possible this was caused by a long term weight shift in a change of gait. When x-rays were done when he was just under a year, and at 13 months, his elbows would have been scored zero. Not now though. That said, although we know there is a slight change in his elbows, it can't be seen on anything but a CT scan, nothing shows up on x-rays, and the fact is his elbows are probably still better than an awful lot of Labrador elbows out there and just doing just fine. Don't worry now about what Bella will or won't be able to do in the future. You will find ways to adjust, these become part of your normal life, you stop noticing them, and your dog can be very, very, happy. As they get a bit older, playing with other dogs becomes less important anyway. And it probably won't be ruled out completely - just a case of everything in moderation. Short lead walks for months are a dreadful pain, and the dog gets very bored. But, although it's boring, it is only boring - in total, Charlie had months of lead walks and it was fine. I had to work quite hard to take him to new places, and keep his mind occupied, but he got through it just fine. If you work, you need to think about how you will manage the rehabilitation. Can you take some time off work? I'm afraid it's quite intensive directly after the op, and they need very short walks very often to keep them moving and to build up the time they can walk for. And you need to prepare the house to be very safe - non slip surfaces, rooms where they can't jump on furniture and so on. Here is the things to do with dogs on restricted exercise thread: http://thelabradorforum.com/forum/n...-do-for-dogs-on-restricted-exercise#post10984
There are some recent studies that showed omega 3 from fish helps arthritic conditions. I use both a supplement containing glucosamine and chondroitin (there is very mixed evidence indeed for these working though) and this also contains krill oil (a source of omega 3). And I use Salmon oil too - a splosh on top of his kibble. Charlie gets a total of about 2300mg a day, which is probably way in excess of anything needed to make a difference. If you need to know how to work out the mgs of omega 3 in liquid, that's here: http://thelabradorforum.com/forum/n...abrador-health/263277-omega-3-dose#post263277 The National Research Council publication on Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats indicates a safe upper limit of the combined amounts of EPA + DHA as 2,800 mg/1,000 kcal of diet, equivalent to 370 mg per (kg body weight)[SUP]0.75[/SUP] for dogs. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...vim.12033/full
