You have to have your dog on a lead if there is a chance they might react inappropriately to another dog. Charlie is happy, confident and outgoing - with well socialised dogs. He is sensitive to other dogs and can get nervous - so no, he is not robust to ill mannered dogs at all, and indeed they can do him harm and make him fearful and I have to work really, really hard to make sure his happy positive experiences outweigh everything else to keep him a happy, confident dog - his periods of isolation made the job harder. He has to deal with situations lots of dogs do not - he can have a "swam" of dogs come up to him that are part of a dog walking pack, and I'm absolutely on my toes to step in if it's necessary. So, actually, I have a dog where I'm very sensitive about other dogs being OTT with him, taking advantage of his gentle nature, getting in his face and scaring him. In terms of learning how long it is acceptable to sniff a girl's bottom, he went to "bottom sniffing" classes for this. Only in London....with teaching dogs that would issue text book warnings when the sniffing went on a second too long. But I do not think that is an option open to many.....
Yeah, and I guess that's where context comes into play. We probably meet another dog (or person!) on a walk on average once every four days or so, max. So during individual walks, even when Shadow was being a bit of an arse, there was no reason to keep him on lead - and when we did see another dog, he could easily be recalled to be put on a lead. I have lots of work to do on them behaving on lead more than off. The body language is completely different when they're on lead and they struggle sometimes. A couple of days ago, Shadow was on his lead (we were walking the dogs together, and it was Willow's "turn" to be loose) and two dogs came belting around a blind corner. I wasn't sure what sex they were, but one was a big beefy bull type, and so I turned tail and walked briskly away, because, as much as Shadow seems to be over his moodiness, I'm still not 100% confident that it's all gone. It turned out they were both bitches, but the bull type did follow us and Shadow was going nuts trying to pull towards it, barking. I asked the owner to take her away a bit and she did - she was actually lovely, which is an anomaly for dog owners here - and, once Shadow had calmed down, I let him off to "talk" to the dogs. He had a sniff, wagged his tail, and then came trotting back to carry on on our merry way. I know this is just a training issue, and he needs to be taught to behave well when he's on lead and there's unknown/potentially scary dogs around, but again, it's an availability issue that's the problem. We don't have bottom-sniffing classes here We are also in the vast minority, caring about this kind of stuff and even thinking about training it. It's admirable, and we should be doing it, because, let's face it, it's far more important than having a dog that delivers a dummy beautifully to hand, but nevertheless, it's not anywhere near as "sexy"
I don't see that Lochan in any way gave an inappropriate response. The dog persistently pestered her, she "speaks dog" extremely well, and in the end gave a robust, short albeit very noisy warning off with no physical contact between her and the other dog. She did not pin him down, bite him or indeed touch him at all - yes, she was noisy but it was a totally predictable response that would be made by many well socialised and confident mature bitches. Yes, the Westie got a real fright but he was not reading dog body language or would have backed off long before. It is an interesting response to inappropriate sniffing in mature and confident bitches which in Lochan's case at least is not repeated towards bouncy, mannerless dogs that run up to play. It is not a response generated to being in the back of a truck with a bunch of strange dogs going shooting. Had she been on the lead she would have done exactly the same thing in response to the same insult.
Ah, yes - that's very true. We do have to very much see ourselves as the odd ones out. In a world where it is not normal to be able to recall your dog....or bottom sniffing classes being easily available. Although the bottom sniffing class was great. I did accept that no-one wanted their dog to have to tell my young upstart off (he is well over being an upstart now, of course, I'm talking a good while ago) for inappropriate bottom sniffing...but someone had to do it and it just wasn't something I could train. Bottom sniffing classes definitely found a gap in the market....
And then you have the on-lead dogs who ALSO can be a problem. Out on our walk today, I came across a young woman who had two dogs on lead - one, a Mastiff, the other, some kind of a Greyhuond cross, I would think. Just as tall as the Mastiff but not as bulky. All of our dogs were on lead. As we approach I can see she is trying to get her two into a sit, so I wait until she has got this. I am a bit dubious about passing, I mean, if the dogs decide to pull there's no way SHE is holding them back - the Mastiff alone probably weighs just as much if not more than her! But she says ""They're friendly!" So ok, off I go, and sure enough, both dogs immediately get up and start to strain against the lead. As predicted, she can't hold them, the Mastiff rushes into Simba who gets knocked into me, knocking me over, general mayhem is occurring as I pick myself up which is resolved once I'm upright. "Oh, I'm so sorry," she says. "Your dog is such a good dog for defending you!" Of course he was doing no such thing, the dog had no interest in me, just Simba, he was defending himself more like! I think of several withering replies but figure there's no point. I check over Simba, he's a little slobbery around the edges but no harm done, and we continue on the way. From behind I hear "No!! Bad dog! Bad dog!" Sigh. Seriously....you really have to wonder what people are thinking sometimes.....
The Westie was not reading Lochan's body laguage which was my original question. I don't think all dogs necessarily read body language too well and neither do owners. They should all read Turid Rugaas - Talking Terms with Dogs : Calming Signals I look at it like humans, some people don't understand personal space, having to almost be in your face when talking to you. My son Joseph (has ASD) and doesn't understand facial expressions so I had teach him with flash cards but he will still look at me and not quite get what my face is saying like other children/adults will. We meet a male rescue dog Lab/Weimeraner/Rottie who is 8 years old, he set about Hattie earlier this year for no reason at all , she always sits looking at me not giving him any eye contact so as far as I am aware she is giving off calming body language but he still bit her on the face Only this week we went round the corner and there he was OFF lead minus his owner, I recalled Hattie put her on lead and he bombed over and started on Hattie again, so I am afraid I yelled at him loudly and got him away from her, said owner appears asking me "what had happened", I told him and his reply was "he just wants to play" err no he doesn't. The owner has no idea, not saying I do but I am learning and trying to understand. x
Yep, some dogs just don't "speak dog" particularly well. I suspect these are dogs which may have been removed from the litter too soon, not been socialised well as pups, etc etc. Down to us as humans making mistakes in their upbringing and the dogs have to live with the consequences....
This is my sister's dog (a cocker) to a T. He wasn't removed too early - he arrived at 8 weeks - but he didn't have any socialisation with other dogs when he was very young and his body language is appalling! He can easily start a fight by just looking at a dog in the wrong way, because he doesn't know any different. So, even though the other dog might make the first physical move, it's him that is (unwittingly) the instigator. He does the doggy version of walking up to a stranger, nose to nose and telling them to F-off! Luckily, my sister is aware of this and understands that it's her dog's "fault" when he gets dogs snapping at him, so just keeps him away and calls to other owners that he's not friendly.
Some dogs are so good at giving off calming signals. Charlie is nervous of all Collie's and I have to say I really dislike them too. David was out with Charlie a few weeks ago on a track when some out of town people with a Collie appeared, the Collie immediately lay on the ground looking away from Charlie giving really calming signals to him, so not a single bark or lunge, Charlie just sat like an angel on a loose lead whilst David gave the owners directions and off they all went, so an excellent result due to the Collie sensing Charlie's nervousness.
I'd really like to find the time to take Obi to bum sniffing classes. He's your classic pushy adolescent male I hope you and Simba are ok too Lisa
I haven't seen him with bitches, but he wasn't even remotely teenager like with Charlie. He was extremely polite! And played very nicely indeed. They both got a tad over excited, but even then they were just still playing chasey very nicely (if a bit fast and furious). Anyway, I think young Labradors (rather than spaniels) specialise in pushy. It partly comes with the breed, mad, over excited, don't stop to think things that they tend to be...
I think I have a similar challenge to the one I've faced with Riley. If a bitch is confident he won't be annoying, if they're a bit meek he'll push his luck. I'd like them both to have slightly better manners regardless of the temperament of the other dog. It's on my list
I'm interested in how you can do this. Your two obviously "speak dog" well as they will back off from a confident bitch and have been well socialised generally. So the issue I had yesterday simply wouldn't arise, especially as you wouldn't let it happen. So how do you go about getting better manners (in our eyes) when they are presented with a meeker bitch? If she doesn't tell them not to overstep the mark how do they learn? Charlie's bum-sniffing classes will have confident mature bitches in them who will let them know when they have gone too far but can this generalise to meeker bitches at home? I can't see it would if you already note they are not pushy with a confident bitch like Caddie anyway. I don't have an answer to this and am genuinely interested in how you might go about training them to have better manners regardless of the temperament of the dog. I suspect this is why many owners of pet dogs simply opt for castration to try to resolve the behaviour.
I'm not sure my two speak dog well but they are better than some and I totally agree it's a matter of generalisation so the question is whether you can get enough experience under their belts to allow that to happen. If they get told off enough by dogs they get better at reading the early signs. That's why it's important to choose as many different dogs as possible but who will all use proportional force as you would want an element of repetition in order to generalise rather than be traumatised A matter of helping them "get their eye in" for the body language of less authoritative dogs It's not high on my list because I like to think I'm sensitive to the other dogs and I act earlier than many people you meet out and about. On the very odd occasion I don't get them back in time I usually assure any owner who's dog has had to tell mine off that I'm not in any way upset by their dogs behaviour as that's often what's worrying them most but then with dog legislation such as it is that's understandable.
What Charlie learned, and I have to say what every other young male who went through the process seemed to learn, was to back off immediately the bitch gave him any signal that he wasn't welcome. It did translate generally a bit, in that he learned when the warning would come and would back off before that, and he stopped standing there with his nose up a girl's bottom until he got told off. He also stopped acting like a girl's bum was connected to his nose with a line to winch him in at warp speed.... But, generally, yes. He is still dependent on a signal from a bitch to remember his manners. I think it's always a "two way thing" with dogs - how they behave changes, depending on the other dog. My friend's dog jumps at Charlie's face and she says constantly "but she doesn't do that with any other dog!". But she does it with Charlie because although Charlie hates it, he won't tell her off sufficiently firmly to make her stop.
I wonder if really good manners in this area can be completely trained or if because it's such an ingrained natural behaviour it is purely down to a dog being a dog. After all it is a way of dogs greeting. Maybe temperament determines how quickly a male will back off or how much a bitch will put up with but as it all boils down to survival of the fittest (or most persistent/determined) with animals maybe it's just instinct to check and double check just incase their lucks in.
Thanks, everyone, I'm okay. Thankfully landed on the grass rather than pavement....although I did land on my shoulder that I'm having a little trouble with these last few months due to falls on the ice last winter (I think) so that was rather annoying. But generally no harm done.
