'Look at That' Training - Charlie

I have been working on this training for about 5 months but haven't progressed beyond our yard yet. Today David and Thomas took both dogs to Danebury Hill Fort which is popular amongst dog walkers to expose Charlie to more dogs as we don't see that many where we live so some are an issue, he luges and barks.

As we don't meet many dogs where we live I thought it was worth just having a go at 'LAT' so David went armed with frankfurters, cheese and clicker. Lots of dogs on/off lead and no issues at all with small/medium dogs so a few C&Ts but when a large dog came towards him he whistles/whines, could this be anxiety, fear or what? Can't help thinking this all got worst after the Flat Coat attack last October Charlie does find it difficult to transfer our training to the outside world also to focus on us, it really is a very long road Is it worth doing this kind of walk to expose and work on 'LAT' or maybe just round the edge of a town park or keep going at home, the trouble is I could sit in my drive all day and not see a single dog pass by to say "LAT" so virtually no training opportunities Thanks xx

 

Hi @charlie Maybe this may help?

http://oz.dogs.net.au/chocolateborders/uploads/documents/THE_LOOK_AT_THAT_GAME.pdf

Towards the end it suggests trying the technique on objects, such as a teddy sitting on a chair. I guess it depends whether Charlie is triggered by motion, or like Casper it can be stationary people with dogs. I was thinking it could be adapted to make a game? Then transferring this to outside? Just a thought...

 

I think you need to get out and about, but to places where you can be a bit more in control of distances etc. How about contacting a local training group, of whatever persuasion, and see if you'd be allowed to go along to a class without actively participating in it, just staying at the perimeter and working on LAT. I've joined classes before just for the opportunity to do my own thing around other dogs that I know are in control.

 

I can't really give any advice with the LAT training. It is not a method I have ever used. But this is just a general observation. It is a massive jump from you training him in the house and the garden to someone else handling him outside with other dogs possibly coming quite close. I think the LAT technique relies on situations being set up in a controlled manner so that another dog will only come as close as is comfortable for your dog and then slowly working up to closer proximities. At least that is my understanding of it.

 

Thanks Kate, I've done that with various toys first in my hand appearing from behind my back, then toys sitting on the table, chair then we moved to other rooms to repeat then into the yard so that he gets the idea. Yes, I could transfer to outside, it's worth a go

I think it's the movement of a larger dog coming towards him, even a sideways distance move by us doesn't help if we can't get far enough away as sometimes that's just not possible.

That's great Kate, sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees x

 

There are only indoor village hall classes which were not good for Charlie and the gun dog trainers round here I wouldn't touch with a bardge pole. We rely on ourselves. Yes we are going out and about, so next week it will be a park that is popular with dog walkers to do perimeter walks which will, hopefully give us more 'LAT' opportunities.

The dogs didn't come too close to Charlie so that's fine and he was good, it seems 'town' dogs are far more polite than rural ones Just thought we would seize the moment to see what happened and it wasn't too bad, I think a couple of 'LAT' was OK. x

 

@charlie after Mabel's first lot of surgery she used to be triggered by stationary people and people walking directly at her. After her second lot it was very problematic as one of our walks is a very popular disused railway and there was literally no escape. We stopped going there for a while as she really was unable to cope. I took her to as many different places as possible so she could see a whole variety of dogs, people etc. I used to play a little game of "find it" starting at a distance I would throw a little food on the floor and get her to find it. After a while she would look at whatever was causing her anxiety, look back at me then at the floor waiting for the treat. It has taken a while but has worked, there isn't anywhere we can't walk now. She still has her moments but it's few and far between apart from screaming kids and the odd horse which is still work in progress. I can now see real progress, we are talking months not weeks so don't get disheartened. I hope this helps you a little.

 

We did LAT training and I'm a huge fan. I agree it's a big jump to go outside. Could you borrow someone with their dog to do nothing more than walk by you while you practice it? We did this both ways, once Oban was the practice dog in class for a little Toller who'd been badly attacked between classes. Both he and his owner needed medical attention. Even though the dog who attacked him was a neutered male the little Toller became nervous around intact males too (and the Toller was intact) and we used Oban to walk up and down, getting closer and closer, with the Toller's owner rewarding for looking at the owner. Oban's problem was just plain old, "A dog. Mum, can I meet him? He might want to play." So we rewarded him for looking at me while a patient owner at class just walked by. In both these cases the dogs were friendly and I think that's a good way to start.

 

@Snowshoe, if only we had some willing dog owners round here it would be great, but sadly not as their own dogs are not trained so I doubt I'd gain anything and might even make it worse

I'm really hoping the town park will help, lots of dogs and a good distance can be achieved to keep him under threshold Thanks x

 

Do you have any contacts through PAT that might be able to spend some time with you?

 

Unfortunately no, we are thin on the ground in my area. The town park it is x

 

@charlie distance is your friend to help with the training in the big outdoors. My girl has odd phases of becoming over excited to meet other dogs so I always work on maintaining a comfortable distance. I stand on the lead but keep it loose, get her to sit and I stand in front if her and then wait for the other dogs to pass. She is allowed to look at the other don but as soon as she looks to me I C&T (easier when standing on the lead ). The more / longer she looks at me the more treats she gets. Then gradually reduce distance but I always move to give distance when passing dogs and change sides with her if necessary to create extra distance.

 

I use a slightly different approach. I will C&T for looks at me, but my focus isn't having a dog who stares at me, but rather one who can calmly watch their trigger. So, in the early stages, I C&T for the dog looking at the trigger, which evolves into them offering looks at me, but I eventually work towards my dog being able to calmly watch the trigger for longer periods - or, indeed, ignore the trigger if they don't want to watch it, which basically means it's no longer a trigger.
I don't make my dogs sit, as I find they're able to stay more relaxed when allowed to stand. If they choose to sit, that's fine, but I like to keep them as comfortable as possible. When it's a big trigger, standing can give them a bit of confidence, as the "flight" option is more available to them.

 

Regarding the LAT technique your training has evolved into, very similar to how I work work with Casper who has difficulty managing his arousal levels. Casper trigger stacks very quickly, and can this can escalate to a really challenging level within the space of a short walk. Engaging with me seems to help enormously, in building and maintaining a confidence level to help him cope not only comfortably but in a curious and naturally relaxed manner.

Now here's the thing. With LAT, I have trained him to look at the "thing" then look at me. This sequence means he gets a treat, but then he can manage the time he is looking at the trigger, but to get a treat he has to look BACK at me. I prefer him not to look at things for any duration, simply because this is not normal behavior for him. In fact, he can be painfully hyper vigilant, which I see as a state of anxiety.

When on a bimble, Casper flicks his attention from one thing to another, deeply inhaling scent from one twig to another. Indeed he can become so engrossed in a seemingly random tussock of grass it is hard to drag him away! But I don't drag him away, I encourage the "head down and sniffing" . We often play "lost" which he loves! High value treats spread on the ground in a old branch, under stone, he loves it!

So my training with LAT has become part of a training regime which helps Casper to enjoy walks, in the way I think he is supposed to naturally. This is why I don't encourage the "Look" as more than a seconds worth of a glance.

 

I agree you don't want to have your dog staring at their trigger - that's all sorts of wrong, but the way it works for me is that, by rewarding them for looking in a calm manner ("calm" being the pertinent word), the trigger becomes something that's not arousing and so no longer a trigger. When they're incapable of being nonchalent about it, then it's, as you describe, looking at and then immediately back. But by repeating this over time, the look itself becomes less "high alert", because you're counter-conditioning the dog so that he associates the trigger with you delivering the reward. I'm certainly not advocating staring at the trigger for any remarkable length of time, but getting them to be comfortable looking for a couple of seconds at a distance that they can cope with and remain under threshold is a good thing, in my opinion.
As with everything, though, all dogs are different and you have to find what variation of the technique works for the one you have in front of you

 

My aim also is not to have a dog staring at me - how uncomfortable is that but if a dog is happy to maintain eye contact for more than just a glance and no longer show interest in their trigger I'm happy and treat while focus is on me. Sit is a default position with my dogs, not something I ask for very often. Whenever we move on to a verge to await something to pass (most often farm vehicles) or if I stop to chat to a neighbour or walking through town if I stop in front of a shop window a sit will be offered.

 

Yup, my two adults also have a default sit (I'm after default stand for Luna, because of the show stuff) so if it's offered, that's fab. But I found with my boy especially (who struggles around other dogs), scrapping asking for a sit and allowing him to stand if he wished helped him relax. I think most people assume that having the dog in a sit is the best approach, but I think allowing the dog to be in the position they are most comfortable in is very beneficial when you're dealing with something that makes them anxious. If that's a sit, a down, a stand, it doesn't matter, as long as it's the dog's choice.
I'm not saying my way is the right way, or the only way, but it's useful for people starting out to read about all sorts of different variations, however subtle, so they realise it's not set in stone and that you can play around to find the way that helps your own dog most.

 

Totally agree with you @snowbunny the one thing I'm always a little concerned about is the body language they are sending to another dog if they are very aroused and standing and the potential for it to be mis-read by others. Not all dogs, and particularly owners, areally good at reading body language and just find the sit position less problematic If we all did the same, what on earth would we talk about

 

We did this too, because Lucky would lunge, whine, bark, and go totally crazy with frustration because he wanted to say hello to the other dog. I do the same as snowbunny, reward for looking at the other dog to begin with. I don't use a marker/clicker for looking at the other dog, but do use a marker word for eye contact with me. I don't put the behaviour on cue. When he is able to offer me regular eye contact, I stop rewarding looking at the other dog, and only mark and reward for checking in with me. I wouldn't ask Charlie to sit, because if he is nervous sitting might make him feel less safe.

Now where Lucky will sometimes offer eye contact with me as soon as he sees another dog, even off lead. This is the reason why I didn't put the behaviour on cue, because now I don't have to be looking out for dogs all the time.

I don't have any set ups for this, so we just do this out and about on walks.

It is hard to control distance when you're out and about in a park, because you have no control over what the other dogs do. My advice from our experience would be:

Start with:
- "boring" dogs. It sounds like for Charlie this is small dogs.
- on lead - they aren't going to come up to you and distrupt your training
- dogs that aren't looking at Charlie (I found this to be the most important thing for Lucky to start with)

The best situation is a very relaxed looking dog on the lead, I then follow them because you can control distance this way by slowing down or speeding up. (I keep an eye on the dog we're following to make sure it doesn't mind and keep a big distance to respect their space too!).

If there is a situation you aren't ready to train for, for Charlie this might be big dogs, I would avoid even trying to train with big dogs. If we were in a situation that was too hard for Lucky, I would lure him away or stream treats until the dog had gone.

I've found learning to judge which situations he's ready for, and when to just lure him away, has helped a lot.

Good luck with the training! I hope really Charlie can learn to feel more comfortable with other dogs.

 

Charlie sounds in some ways like @Beanwood Casper, he can quickly go from 0 to 100 at a trigger which is only some dogs everything else is great. Charlie is only at the stage of a quick glance at the trigger which I think is OK at the moment. This morning was a good morning, David was out at 6.00 am with him, they saw a man walking towards them with 2 collies, Charlie looked at the dogs so C&T and quickly looked at David, he did this a few times until they all met stood and chatted for a while and only one minor was one of the Collie's sniffed way too long at Charlie's butt so he rumbled a little but I think that's fare enough.

Another good one was at the vet last week, David was making an appointment at reception where there was a lady standing next to him trying to control her black labrador who was lunging and barking at Charlie. To Charlie's credit he didn't even flinch at that point David was stream treating Charlie for his calm behaviour, unfortunately he didn't have his clicker but even so pretty good

@lucky_dog thanks for your help, yes we do follow relaxed looking dogs at a distance for training and on ocassions the odd big dog that we know who is calm. Unfortunately a big dog might appear on a walk and there's not a lot you can do other than change direction or walk in the road to gain some distance so we just have to judge dog by dog when we see them. Distance is definately the way we train to keep Charlie comfortable. Thanks so much for your help x