Re: Lots of training questions -- long Totally agree with outside to wee regardless lof weather. I have been stood outside freezing often in my pyjamas rain, snow sleet many a time calling " have a wee" . I always treated after a wee outside only a dry kibbe from her daily allowance. We had few accidents inside because I was a helicopter puppy owner. It was about 14 weeks when she was much more reliable . Now age one she wees and poos on command which is great when I am dashing out. Stick with it, you will have your sleep back Soon
Re: Lots of training questions -- long [quote author=NewLabOwner link=topic=10297.msg151416#msg151416 date=1427113019] especially the last couple of days while it's been raining, she doesn't want to go out [/quote] Puppies have to go out to wee, even when it's raining, snowing...whatever. Out to wee. That's that. They soon get used to it.
Re: Lots of training questions -- long Willow didn't like going out in the rain when we first had her. So I stood out there singing, squeaking and running around like a loon, waving my arms to show her how much fun it was. She generally just sat there, looking at me like I was mental. She had a point.
Re: Lots of training questions -- long I'm feeling pretty good about our progress since I first started this thread. I think Ellie knows her name well now. When I say her name even in talking about her to someone else, she looks up at me. She doesn't come EVERY time I call but she is close. When she comes, I give her treat. House training -- she's still going inside but I think I'm recognizing some of the things I'm doing wrong and will work on correcting. Because she was going all over the house, I put the wee wee pads down and then gave her a piece of kibble when she used them. I use this same method outside. There is a spot in our yard that we take her to where she does her business. She'll wee pretty much anywhere but she's like this other space in the far corner of our yard so I take her there. I think she's starting to know that "out" means to go out and "go potty" and also "go poop." I've made the mistake of asking her "need to go potty?" and start getting my shoes on to take her out and then she'll go potty right where she is. Great progress.. but not in the house.. so I have to not do that. I have say "potty" when we're already outside. She's also learning a similar thing with "want to go out?" I don't know why I do this, but I ask her "want to go out?" and she'll go over by the door. Today, she went by the door and peed right outside her crate. Not in... yay.. progress, but not outside either. So, I have to be mindful of my words because I think she's getting it. I also give extra kibble when she goes outside and have now stopped giving any for going on the pad. I picked up all but one pad yesterday and she found it to go poop on, which she was about to miss but I caught her and slid it under her. Still.. not ideal but at least it's in the same spot and not on the floor. We're making progress. To answer some questions: Simple solution -- I don't use that but I use something called Nature's Miracle. It's a stain and odor remover. I learned about this product from my sister years ago as she worked in a pet store and she used it with her pets. I actually used it for my children and myself... it removes blood and urine. So, when I was potty training my own children, I'd use it for urine, vomit, etc. It completely takes away the stain and odor. I had carpet back then so I wanted to be sure to be able to get out stains like that. I have laminate flooring now but I still spray nature's miracle every time she goes on the floor in the area she went. Maybe that's why she keeps going in different places without the wee wee pad down. In any case, I've got that covered. Crate -- Her crate is for a large dog that she'll be able to use when she is full grown. It has a divider that we use to make the crate smaller. So, right now, she can lay in it with some extra space to move around. As she grows, we'll move the divider. I also have started to cover the crate with a black sheet. I don't cover it entire just the larger half she's not using and about half of her space. I think that provides a more cozy environment. I think I've made a mistake the first few nights though as I had her sleep on my lap during the night and now she really does prefer to sleep with either me or my 14 year old daughter. I don't mind her sleeping with me. I am concerned that while I'm sleeping she'll wake up and get into something she shouldn't so I prefer her to go in her crate. Last night, she slept with my daughter. My girls have bunk beds with a trundle so my daughter has been pulling out the trundle and allowing Ellie to sleep with her. Then, I slept in the bed above the trundle. At 5:30am Ellie started nibbling on my hand. She woke me up. I played with her a few seconds and then got up to take her out... and she crouched to go wee and I picked her up stopping her in mid-stream and brought her right outside - she went wee. I gave her kibble. Yay! Biting -- I have been using the "squeal" method when she bites too hard. Some times it stops her completely as she's looks around wondering if that was me or not. Sometimes she isn't phased at all and that is when I use the "time out" method but I think that it isn't the right thing for her as I think it is making her not like her crate... even though I feed her in there and give her treats in there. I'm going to try the method that snowbunny suggested which is to stop play and not look at her, avoid her. I'm not sure that will work with her at this age yet but I will try it and see how it goes. She likes to go after our feet. So, I think if I stand there not looking at her she may not care and all and just attack my feet. Something just occurred to me about the crate and her blankets in there. When she wets in there, I wash her bedding but I'm not washing them in nature's miracle but rather my usual laundry detergent. I wonder if the scent is somehow still there and that is encouraging her to continue to go in there. Nature's Miracle does have a laundry product so maybe that's something for me to try. I agree with going outside to wee in the rain and any other weather. It's my failure not hers. I'm allowing her to "not" go and that's wrong. It's laziness on my part as it is 5:30am and I'm tired. We'll get there though. She's making progress and that's the important thing. Thanks for all of your help and suggestions. Lisa
Re: Lots of training questions -- long I've thought of another couple of things. At 8 weeks, which is when we brought Willow home, I started with the method that is suggested in the Happy Puppy Handbook for nighttime toilet trips. I set my alarm for about 2.5 hours (from memory) the first night, took her out then and re-set the alarm for another 2.5 hours. The next night, this was increased by 15 minutes, and every night another 15 minutes was added, unless she had an accident, when it was clear that we needed to slow it back down again. Yes, it means getting up more in the night, but you're pretty sure to not have any accidents. We were interrupted by her getting an upset tummy in the early days, so I ended up sleeping on the sofa so I could get to her quickly to take her out if she whimpered, but other than that, it was a technique that got us through the nights in a consistent way without any (weeing) accidents. It's hard work and tiring, but worth it. I also think having that alarm set helps you to sleep a little better, because you're not having to sleep with one ear open to hear your puppy whimper. Additionally, it sounds from what you've said that she has free run of a large inside area. This makes toilet training a lot more difficult. As I mentioned before, the instinct is not not go to the toilet in their den, but at this stage, the den is really only their sleeping area. Anything outside of that is a perfectly good place to go, as far as a puppy is concerned. The general tactic is to restrict them to a small area outside of their crate to start with, such as the kitchen, until they're accident-free there, then slowly make the area they're allowed into larger and larger. I appreciate that your home is open-plan and sympathise because mine is too, but there are solutions: you can buy a puppy pen to restrict her access to the greater extent of the home, or do as I did and use old doors, boxes, furniture etc to section off areas. Yes, you spend a couple of weeks climbing over things, but it does help massively with toilet training.
Re: Lots of training questions -- long You are getting the idea, Lisa. When the pup gets it wrong it's YOUR fault. You will soon be a fully fledged Labrador Mum.
Re: Lots of training questions -- long [quote author=Mollly link=topic=10297.msg151807#msg151807 date=1427207881] You are getting the idea, Lisa. When the pup gets it wrong it's YOUR fault. You will soon be a fully fledged Labrador Mum. [/quote] So pleased you're feeling more positive Lisa and you will get there although it always seems a long hard road at the time. One ting I would suggest though is setting the alarm to take Ellie out at night, it makes life easier and they soon become capable of going through the night without needing a wee. I had Juno crated at night and for the first 10 days she was in her crate in my bedroom so I heard her when she woke and started fidgeting so I could get up and take her out for a wee. Also I didn't interact with her, despite her joyously licking my face as I carried her down the stairs and just said wee etc. when we were outside. I found it was easier for her to settle again in her crate.
Re: Lots of training questions -- long I must be "tuned in" to all of you because that's exactly what I've been doing the last couple of nights though last night when I went to take her out, my daughter was already on her way out the door with her. The trend I notice is that she goes for a first sleep of the night at about 8:30-9pm. She sleeps until about midnight or 1am. Then she'll sleep until my husband gets up at 5:30-6am. So, I take her out when she wakes up after her first night time nap and stay outside with her until she goes. It can sometimes be a long time and I've even had to carry her over to her spot because it's been wet out so much with all the rain we're getting. I made her go out and literally carried her over to the spot. She sat there and looked at me for awhile. If my neighbor's can hear me, I must sound quite funny talking to the dog. Go potty. Go poop. Over and over again. LOL Last night she did 3 or 4 fast laps around our 18' above-ground pool and then she came to her spot and went. Snowbunny, I have an odd set-up to my house. The living room and dining room are one big room and the back door is on the wall the two rooms share.. between to the two rooms. I have two entries into my kitchen. One from the dining room and one from the hallway near the bedrooms. We live on one floor. The doorway from the kitchen into the hallway is not a normal doorway. The one wall is angled toward the other so I cannot put a gate up there. I can put one up at the end of the hallway though and keep the bedroom doors closed. This is what I did when my children were toddlers. The other doorways in my house are too large for any kind of gate or have similar entryways as the kitchen. I could get a pen but have absolutely no where to put a pen. I had a hard enough time finding a place for that giant crate and I'm still not sure it will stay where it is. I've had the crate right next to the back door so that when she's in her crate, I open the back door and let her right out. That works perfectly when she naps in her crate but at night, she's sleeping with my daughter so I have to get her to get to the door before she squats. We're getting farther each time. LOL Last night, my daughter carried her to the door. That works fine for now but it won't be long and she'll be too big to be carried to the back door. My friend is giving me two gates. I can put one in the kitchen and one at the end of the hallway. That will block off the 2 bedrooms, the kitchen and the bathroom. We can then either keep her in the dining room/living room or the kitchen and hallway. It definitely confines the space and will be easier to keep her out of trouble while giving me some peace of mind that I don't have to follow her all around the house constantly day and night. I think she's making wonderful progress. I've noticed that her biting is better too. I've noticed (and this works with children too) that when she's getting over excited and bites too hard, if I use a calm voice, she gets calmer. So, instead of giving a cry of no or an angry/frustrated no, I let calmly talk to her "be nice" and I pet her with one hand while she's biting the other. Be nice.. be gentle, it's ok, .. and I'm finding that she really does calm down. The yelping seems to work pretty well too. Here's a photo of Ellie near the bunch of cut bush stumps she likes to gnaw on. I allow it for a short time then I divert her attention to something else. I don't want her gnawing so long that she can get any kind of chunk off of it. I let her do it just long enough to relieve some of that teething. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ok2t6alwy40y3pi/20150323_193417.jpg?dl=0 This one is her sleeping on her giant bean bag chair. You can see why she loves it, right? It's big and comfy. https://www.dropbox.com/s/8utm2mle6xif4ui/IMG_3837.JPG?dl=0 Lisa
Re: Lots of training questions -- long I'd be wary of stroking her while she's biting as essentially you are saying it's ok to bite and in fact rewarding it.
Re: Lots of training questions -- long Yes I second what James has said, in her head you are being nice to her for biting and so encouraging her to bite more. You say that the yelp etc winds her up but that being calm seems to work so how about just plain old ignoring her? When she's mouthing you just fold your arms, stand up and turn away. She wants your attention and will quickly learn that biting means you take that attention away. Even if you have to walk away from her so she's not jumping at you. Be aware you may find you get something known as an 'extinction burst'. This is where she has realised that she is getting attention for biting and when you start taking that attention away she may begin to bite harder or more persistently in order to get that attention back. If this happens it is even more importat to stick to your guns and be consistent. She will soon get the message that no matter what she does she won't get any attention for biting you. I note that you have also said she sleeps with your daughter overnight. Is this a good idea? What I mean is that especially while housetraining consistency is important. She knows how to get to the back door from her crate but you say you have to carry her from your daughters room to the back door or she will have an accident. Would it not be best to keep her sleeping in her crate until she is reliably housetrained and can be trusted to go from anywhere in the house to the back door without having an accident?
Re: Lots of training questions -- long Hi Lisa I'm with Jaymz and Lauren on the biting. If the squealing excites her withdraw your attention. Stroking her while she bites is a mixed message. Also agree with the crating at night then she can go from the crate to the garden as she would during the day. Although lovely and cuddly Ellie will soon be a big girl and will your daughter want to share her bed then?
Re: Lots of training questions -- long I used the same method with my Airedale pup. Already using that method Ellie relaxes and bites softer. It doesn't seem like it's confusing her. We do have some transitioning to do in the crate but I have to first work on getting her to stay in there at night all. The bed my daughter us sleeping with ellie is the trundle that we can push in but even when she's big I suspect my daughter will still want to sleep with her. I have to wash the bedding in nature's miracle as I think there is still a scent she is picking up. Once that us done I have to work on the crate being a comfy place for her. Ultimately I do want her to sleep in her crate. Lisa
Re: Lots of training questions -- long If you are wanting her to sleep in the crate and get used to it you need to ideally start as soon as possible. Does she not like being in the crate? Is that why she sleeps with your daughter instead? Most pups don't like being in the crate to begin with but there are lots of things you can do to help get them used to it. There are lots of articles on the main site about things like that too so would be good to have a read of them.
Re: Lots of training questions -- long [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=10297.msg152126#msg152126 date=1427321599] If you are wanting her to sleep in the crate and get used to it you need to ideally start as soon as possible. Does she not like being in the crate? Is that why she sleeps with your daughter instead? Most pups don't like being in the crate to begin with but there are lots of things you can do to help get them used to it. There are lots of articles on the main site about things like that too so would be good to have a read of them. [/quote] I don't know if she necessarily "likes" the crate but ever since she peed in it, she doesn't seem to want to go in as much. I've been putting her in the crate since we brought her home... minutes at a time for her to get used to it. All the days are running together so forgive me if I can't remember exactly when things have happened. She got to the point where she would go in her crate on her own for a nap. I think it changed when she went in her crate instead of the wee wee pad. I'm pretty sure it's ever since then. I didn't yell at her or punish her or anything like that but I think she the scent is still there. I came to the realization in this thread that even though I'm washing her bedding, which right now consists of a fleece blanket, towel and a big sheet (because I read it's best not to buy bedding yet because she'll chew it), it probably still has a scent because it hasn't been washed with something like Simple Solution or Nature's Miracle. So, my first order of business is to wash her bedding with the proper detergent that will remove any scent she might detect. Then, once that's gone, maybe she'll forget that she's gone in there and like it again. I think she also like company. The first few nights I slept with her on my lap. Probably a big mistake but I felt bad that she was just 6 weeks old and didn't have her siblings near her anymore. I did that for a few days. I'm not sure when she started sleeping my daughter in the trundle bed but she stays there from about 1am until my husband gets up between 5:30 and 6. On Sunday, she slept there from 1am until 7am. One day at a time. I remember when I was potty training my children. It felt the same way. It felt like we were never going to succeed. It's the same with puppies, I guess. While you're going through it, it doesn't feel like there will ever be success. I know there will be. There is progress being made. Thanks, Lisa
Re: Lots of training questions -- long A very simple question. Do you give Ellie a treat when you put her in the crate? Right from the start I dropped 2 pieces of Kibble into the crate when I popped Molly in. It was food she would get anyway and it gave her good associations with the crate. I have to confess here that I have a dumb dog. It was two pieces of Kibble when she was 8 weeks old and weighed 10 lbs. She is now 18 months old and weighs around 60 lbs and she still trots happily in for 2 pieces of kibble. That dog has NO negotiating skills. I have always referred to her crate as her bed ready for the time we would transition her to an ordinary bed.
Re: Lots of training questions -- long [quote author=Mollly link=topic=10297.msg152167#msg152167 date=1427357981] A very simple question. Do you give Ellie a treat when you put her in the crate? Right from the start I dropped 2 pieces of Kibble into the crate when I popped Molly in. It was food she would get anyway and it gave her good associations with the crate. I have to confess here that I have a dumb dog. It was two pieces of Kibble when she was 8 weeks old and weighed 10 lbs. She is now 18 months old and weighs around 60 lbs and she still trots happily in for 2 pieces of kibble. That dog has NO negotiating skills. I have always referred to her crate as her bed ready for the time we would transition her to an ordinary bed. [/quote] I sometimes give her a treat when I put her in the crate. If it's for a timeout then no. If I tell her, "in your crate" and she goes, then I give her a treat. If I'm leaving to run an errand and I put her in her crate, then I give a treat. Pretty much any other time except for time out, I give her a treat. Lisa
Re: Lots of training questions -- long I first introduced Juno to her crate by just throwing treats in to it and for her o eat them in there creating a good association with the crate. For about the first 10 day she slept in her crate in my bedroom but since then has slept in the kitchen, first in her crate and now just on her crate mattress. Her crate was always called "bed" but she also has a nice soft comfy bed in the lounge which is also "bed" giving her a choice as to where she wants to snooze when the lounge door is open. We also say just "go and lay down" and allow her to choose which be she goes to according to our needs. I've also been mean in that she hasn't got a treat for getting in her crate/bed apart from in the first few days. Why would I treat her for going to the one place that's hers to rest, chew toys or sleep? Others wouldn't agree with the lack of treats but it's worked for me with Juno.
Re: Lots of training questions -- long [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10297.msg151548#msg151548 date=1427145046] [quote author=NewLabOwner link=topic=10297.msg151416#msg151416 date=1427113019] especially the last couple of days while it's been raining, she doesn't want to go out [/quote] Puppies have to go out to wee, even when it's raining, snowing...whatever. Out to wee. That's that. They soon get used to it. [/quote] Yes and I take her but she refuses to go. How long do you stay out there? I was out there for an hour with her and she refused to go. Lisa
Re: Lots of training questions -- long [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=10297.msg151665#msg151665 date=1427189166] Willow didn't like going out in the rain when we first had her. So I stood out there singing, squeaking and running around like a loon, waving my arms to show her how much fun it was. She generally just sat there, looking at me like I was mental. She had a point. [/quote] ;D ;D ;D [size=6pt] (I can relate to this! )[/size]
Re: Lots of training questions -- long It's been about a week since I posted last so I thought I'd give an update. I made the changes I said I would make: [li]I put the gates up so Ellie is confined to a smaller space; the kitchen and the hallway[/li] [li]I cleaned out her crate, washed the bedding and put in the Nature's Miracle to remove the residual odor that she may be smelling[/li] [li]I put the wee pads in the kitchen and hallway[/li] [li]I no longer allow her to sleep on any beds. She sleeps in her crate.[/li] [li]I bought the bitter apple spray to spray on my furniture and cabinet corners so she doesn't chew them -- this is a new one I learned from someone who is getting her Lab puppy this week.[/li] [li]I haven't walked her in a week. I've left her in her crate instead of take her with us. We are generally gone no longer than 2-3 hours. Her outside time now is only in our yard.[/li] She's had some great days and some not-so-great days. House training seemed to making some progress but nothing 100% consistent yet. I think she was at least trying to get to the wee pads most of the time. Yesterday, it was raining and she is so stubborn in the rain. I take her out anyway, but she tends to just sit there and cry at the door. She will literally stay there for an hour. Then, we get in the house and she'll go. Very frustrating. The progress though is that yesterday, she cried to go in and then pooped on the wee pad. If it wasn't raining, she would've gone outside. I'm sure of it. So, we'll have to figure out how to get her to do that. I stopped rewarding her for going outside and she seemed to do better. I just praise her and she loves it. So, I stopped those treats. She went 2 whole days without peeing in her crate. That is excellent progress. I think that Nature's Miracle in the wash did the trick. I also think the reason she went in the crate was because she was upset. She bit my husband so hard that it broke skin.. on his hand where he had surgery in November so he shouted, yelled, etc. It hurt. He put her in her crate immediately. He wasn't playing with her. She ate and then ran hard and fast outside so much so that she threw it all up and started to eat it. He was trying to get her to stop and she attacked him. So, he put her in her crate. I think him being upset with her caused her pee a little in it. So, I will take it out and wash it again. She was doing well though even during time out in keeping her crate dry. For a couple of days, if she peed in her crate, she stayed in it. I didn't immediately wash it and it so happened to be during times that I was running errands so she was spending more time in the crate than usual so maybe that helped her realize that the crate is her space and she shouldn't pee in it. Today after the episode with my husband a few hours ago, she made the most no-bite progress she's ever made. She FINALLY calmed down after I said "no-bite" when she was too aggressively going for me. She actually calmed her bite down. This is the first time she's EVER done that. We've decided that a general "no" is too general of a command that we are now saying "no-bite." It is specific to what we want her to do as opposed to "no" which we use for various things. I've only been using it for a few days now but after this morning, perhaps my husband's behavior toward her helped her to understand it a little better. He was very angry and was actually at the point talking to me that he was ready to get rid of her. I know that we have made a lot of mistakes. I was at this point just a couple of weeks ago. I definitely think she's made progress and I'm thrilled about this morning and the listening to the "no-bite" command. It's just that we've had her for 4 weeks now and when we look at her progress over all, it doesn't really feel like she's gotten better with the biting. Unless she's sleeping, she is constantly what appears to be "attacking" someone. As soon as she sees my 9 year old, she starts biting her hard! We are all at the point where we have a chew toy nearby us at all times so that when the dog comes near us, we can divert her to it because she will bite hard. The chew toy diverts her temporarily but she is constantly trying to chew her hands/feet, etc. What we're doing to fix the biting: [li]always divert to a chew toy and not allow her to bite our hands even gently[/li] [li]yelp if she bites us -- sometimes this will stop her momentarily only to come back harder[/li] [li]talk calmly after a "no bite" command - this works sometimes but only at the start of an aggressive bite - never when she's over-excited[/li] [li]stand tall and ignore her -- she continues to bite our feet, pants, anything she can reach[/li] [li]firmly say "no bite" and I hold her snout closed while getting her to her crate - I hold her snout shut only if she's overly excited and the initial calm stern no-bite command isn't heeded.[/li] The only thing that works 100% of the time is the time-out. Everything else works sometimes but not always. Sometimes she gets more excited and bites harder. I think the no-bite command along with the time-out might be the winner, but it's a work in progress. The biting is the real problem for us. It's not necessarily that she bites because I understand she is a puppy and puppies bite and chew. What we don't like is that she will lunge at us in a growling way as if she's attacking a stranger and defending herself or her master. I've never had a puppy do that before and neither has my husband. Neither of us have ever had a Lab before. I've been reading and reading and reading about all of this and it does appear that it is all normal. That is what is even more bothersome because the concern is that she won't ever stop and then we have a 70 pound aggressive dog on our hands. I understand that I just need to continue to be consistent and patient. I'm trying. Any other suggestions? Thanks again, Lisa
