"Manliness"...When should I worry

Here in Canada, it has been the norm to neuter males by 6 months or so, now, however, vets are holding off (and breeders are requiring the hold off) until at least a year to support proper growth and development.

I'm sure I saw a thread in the topic a way back, but Archie was so little the idea wasn't on my register! Now that he is 6 months and his parts are bouncing around all over the place, it is!!

My concern is that at some point he will become more concerned with finding himself a mate than responding to my recall signal. Is this something I need to be prepared for? Is there a point at which it will no longer be safe to have him off lead? I am totally inexperienced with an intact dog as we've had them all snipped by 6 or 7 months in the past.

Maybe I'm getting worried for nothing?? Thanks so much for any info you can share.
Deb (and Archie who is currently hiding all parts in fear )

 

It seems a lot of the members here have had success in training and keeping their dogs intact. It has been a lot of training on my part but my boy remains intact and we have not had any issues with him straying. I think a lot of vets are seeing the benefit to allowing dogs to mature before they recommend neutering. It is not a requirement, just a preference. I have learned so much from the the members on the other side of the pond and feel much better about my choice not to neuter him compared to the way a lot of people in the US pressure you to neuter.

 

Oban is intact, he's 9 years old. I guess I didn't worry too much as my first dog, my childhood dog, was intact all his nearly 17 years too. Back then most dogs were not neutered or spayed.

I am in a rural area and I can find places to go where we will not meet many other dogs. I have met two bitches in heat while they and Oban were off leash. ONe nitwit who knew him even drove up and let her dog out almost right in front of him. Yes, I had to drag him away. But, the other three dogs with me, two neutered males and a spayed female, gave that poor little girly dog a lot of grief as she smelled different to them too. We all knew each other.

REcall is not really a problem. We had to refresh excellent puppy recall at 18 months but that had nothing to do with sex. Oban is pretty high energy and sure of himself and he just needed a reminder and for me to find another way to convince him coming back to me when I said so was worth his while. This is why I still carry two balls (I mean besides the ones Oban carries around ) they are the highest value reward I can offer when I throw them for him.


Meeting another intact male might make for a scrap but generally if we pass like ships in the night there might be some posturing and that's it. What is my biggest problem is not with recall at all. There are some neutered males who don't like intact males. Oban doesn't alert to them like he does to an intact male so neither of us has any idea if trouble is brewing. We recently had our worst scuffle ever with several puncture wounds to Oban's ears and neck, all from a neutered male we had no idea might be trouble.

Until recently there was a breeder of GR upwind of us and there are intact girls close by in our village. I've never seen any sign of Oban wanting to "find" them. You hear horror stories of male dogs breaking out of fences and such to get to a female but I don't see it. We have done some trialing too and even though girls in heat are not supposed to come some are always there, they can come in pretty quickly sometimes. It's a distraction we trained for courtesy of our obedience trainer asking members to bring their in heat girls to class (they were crated) so we could learn what our dog would do and how to handle it.

 

Thanks so much for that info. I guess I just worried that he'd be more interested in taking off to find a partner than he would be in sticking with me...like he'd be some kind of maniac ; I will hope that the fun we have on our bush runs will be enough to keep him close by. I know the pocket of treats works like a charm now!

I too had heard stories of dogs taking off in search of a mate (and a friend's intact lab did that anytime he could), I wonder if the training you've done with Oban makes the difference? I'm so sorry he's had this run in with a not-so-friendly male. I will have to start thinking about when it might not be safe to take him to the dog park any more. Our doggy daycare allows intact males up to 9 months of age. Does that seem like when I might start to see/have to worry about the reactions of other dogs? Archie has always been such a softie- a scrap broke out between two dogs on our road and Archie hightailed it out of there like his butt was on fire!
Deb

 

Shadow is two and a half, entire, and not bothered by girls in heat. We had our neighbour's bitch camped outside our house one day and night in the summer, howling to get to him. He was upset by the noise, but no more than Willow was. He is certainly more interested in sniffing areas where girls have been when they're in season, but I don't worry about him running off to find them. I think it's less common than we're led to believe by popular culture. Of course, there are dogs that it would be a problem for, but don't worry about something that isn't a problem yet

 

Bailey is 11 months old (1 year on 19 February ) and he is in tact. I have seen no signs of him running off looking for the ladies, but that could be because we've not met a lady on heat - when he is off lead we are mostly out in the country where there are not many dogs - if we are in a highly populated dog area - town centre park - then he has to be on a lead anyway. My sisters dog was snipped at 10 months old as a friend of theirs had a female in season and Riley was really acting up and really was not himself, so bits were snipped and according to my sister the behaviour stopped. Luckily Riley and Bailey are still best of friends even though one is snipped and one is in tact.

I have no immediate plans to alter Bailey, he has a beautiful nature and to date I see no reason to do so - is his recall perfect - Nope but that is our fault and something we are working on. To be honest he is more interesting in finding rabbits, squirrels, coots and birds (the feathered kind ) in general to chase and try to catch them than in anything else.

 

Snowie is 5 and intact. He has a lovely nature. But he will hightail it over to a bitch in heat. And if given the opportunity I have no doubt he'll take the desired action pronto! But I have noticed that he's not so frantic as he was when he was much younger - then he howled if the bitch on heat was close by and I had to use every ounce of my strength to keep him away. Perhaps with age his hormones have diminished?

He cannot escape our garden so that's not an issue. I won't walk him off leash near a busy road because his recall is not reliable. But definitely in safe places, no problem. Luckily we seldom encounter on heat bitches.

Regarding other males - I can't see a particular pattern. There's posturing and friendliness around both intact and neutered. Altho of late he has been mounting intact young males, looks like a play of dominance, something very new to us. Hopefully this phase shall pass... I simply leash him up and keep walking (and of course apologise!).

We were at a seaside town a few weeks ago. Met a very big intact Lab also 5 years old (funnily enough had been the runt of the litter). Perfectly behaved. Submitted to Snowie. Kept with his people, always off leash, perfect recall. And Snowie just wanted to mount him - urrrgghhh!!!! I was tempted to remove Snowie's balls then and there!! But I do blame us - poor training of recall.

 

Yes, because of the peculiar thing with male dogs at puberty. Male dogs, unlike many other mammals, can see their testosterone levels soar during puberty to sometimes 7 times what they will be in adulthood. At this time the poor things reek of the stuff (we can't smell it) and any dog might decide he needs to be put in his place. Most likely other intact males but again, our troubles were mostly with neutered males. For his part Oban, and owners of other pubertal males have told me too, seemed to have no idea why so many dogs didn't like him all of a sudden. As we were always off leash all the dogs had room to evade and avoid each other so no harm came to any. I can see how at DDC this might not be the case. There is some good reading on this in the link, about half way down at Puppy License to Misbehave. The whole article is good.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/dog-communication

 

My pup is 9 months next week. He hasn't roamed yet but can someone tell me when puberty ends. Never owned an entire male before.

 

This is very interesting - the soaring of testosterone levels. Perhaps explains why Snowie is mounting young intact males. Not sure why now all of a sudden - perhaps in response to his changing levels with age? And he had that bleeding a month ago, so possibly changes are happening.

 

Thanks for the info. Very interesting that the testosterone level will make teen dogs so unlikeable! Poor guys.

I will go check the article out. Thanks!
D.

 

Ack! I feel your pain.

Archie is mounting anything. Boys. Girls. My daughters. The architectural post in the dining room...

 

Have to add, Oban has never humped anything other than Poppa Bear, his teddy bear. He doesn't mark though he did have to have some refresher toilet training for a short while when moving from horizontal (grass ok, carpet not) to vertical (trees ok, people legs not).

 

Snowie has only ever mounted dogs. Never inanimate objects or people. And when he mounts dogs, only from behind. Unlike two dogs we regularly meet who mount Snowie from any angle - head, side, one even rides him like a jockey! Snowie couldn't care less with those two dogs, just stands politely until their owners call them away/pull them off!

 

Rory never mounts any dog except Poppy. Only her ever she is his love.She calls to him chases him and sings when she sees him. he cries when he can't play with her. I've always interrupted and distracted him from anything at home which looks a bit like it may lead to mounting. Doug was with us for Rorys first 2 years and he made sure Rory behaved with decorum . A look from Doug stopped him getting too excited and made him think. It got us through the hormone overloaded years. I let him play with poppy but when he get over excited he goes in his lead or we leave.

 

Coco (neutered at around 14 months) mounts other dogs/bitches when he's excited in rough play. He'll mount either end, he's not fussy. We step in and move him off, he calms straight away, but will soon be excited playing again..hump hump. He's NEVER mounted inanimate objects (with us anyway), he was late to cock his leg, but will happily mark on walks now (proud doggy-mum every time), never in the house or on people/dogs.

 

Homer is 4 years old now and not neutered. There was a period at about one years old when I had to step up recall training and he went through a fit of a mounting phase. Where we walk there are lots of different dogs, most are off lead so there are times he'll come across a dog he finds interesting, male or female. Generally he'll start to sniff ears a bit too much I'll walk briskly away from him and the other dog call him and usually he'll come back to me or if I'm close I'll pop him back on his lead and walk on a bit away from the other dog. This generally works but is not completely fool proof as rarely but sometimes he has come to me nicely then suddenly turned to run back to the other dog. This is rare but has happened occasionally so have to be on the watch out, never complacent.

 

Sparky is almost 9 months old now, and puppy playtime last night didn't go too well. There was only one other puppy there, a 6 month old black lab. Play started off as usual, but next thing you know he mounted the other puppy's face and started humping away. I spent the whole time stopping play and saying "no!" everytime he tried to sniff the other pup's bits or even attempted to mount him again. It came to the point that the other pup would hide behind his owners. Near the end, he was much better and just resumed regular play, and we were advised to start thinking of neutering.

He has never done this before to any other dog. He would hump his animal toys, and my wife's leg. But, now that he has destroyed all those toys, he hasn't really humped at home much. There was also one incident at the dog park a couple of weeks ago. An intact Doberman wouldn't let him be. He kept going after Sparky and even chased us down at the opposite end of the park knocking him over and humping away at Sparky. The owner said the previous day, his dog was the other way around. She said she thinks its because he was intact and the other dogs love to show him his place.

So I have a choice. Do I get him neutered soon? The vet said 9 months. I wanted to go 12 months or so. He still has alot of growing to go. His front hasn't caught up to his rear yet and he still has a puppy head. I'm afraid if I neuter him now his growth wouldn't be complete. Or do i wait? But does that mean he cannot go socialize with other dogs for now? No puppy playtime or dog parks for a while until he calms down? Or do I let him play on a case by case basis. Supervision just in case he humps. I am also afraid of him being attacked by other dogs because he is intact. What should I do?

 

Is this the only incident on which you're taking a decision?

Snowie was very "humpy" at that age. It passed. He's 5 years old now and still intact. He went through various humpy stages and all of them passed. A few weeks ago he was fixed on unneutered young males. He's not mounted another dog lately.

On our evening walk there's a neutered male, 8 years old, that crazily humps Snowie from every angle, gets overexcited when he sees Snowie. Snowie just stands there unphased.

I would definitely not keep your dog away from other dogs just because of mounting. He needs the opportunity to learn what's acceptable and what isn't - you can supervise him. I'm sure there will be others with more experience than me who can advise you on how to supervise kindly and with rewards.

 

Our daycare doesn't accept entire dogs after 6 months mainly because other dogs can tend to beat up on them. That seems to be the main issue, not really behaviour problems of the young male.

It might be good if you can buy yourself some time so you can observe his behaviour and interactions over a longer period.

My dog has been desexed since 7 months and it doesn't stop him mounting things and other dogs.