Re: Messed Up I think the point with Charlie is he NEVER does 10 - 20 meters he does 2 - 5 minutes, no matter how hard we train, and we do 7 days a week twice a day and total recall at the weekends and have done for almost a year, but his history as an absconder prevents us ever getting to where you guys are, and I know we never will. Maybe we just have to accept him the way he is. Heidrun in answer to your question, no we couldn't see him until he came bombing back to us and yes it's heart stopping but better than he was. I think also, you all had your dogs from pups just as we did with Hattie who is a 10 - 20 meter dog too. Charlie did not have the same start in life. My question:- Is the long line working or will he learn better off lead? Thanks Helen xx
Re: Messed Up Sorry thank you Lynne and Lisa I appreciate your support also, it's a tough one for sure and I don't really know what else to do. Helen x
Re: Messed Up hellen i so feel for you,,, you have worked so hard,.....your right about us having ours from pups, ....also i have never ever had a dog before, ??? i just think if charlie was loose from the training line, as you said today he was back to you within 2 mins,may be just may be he finds you more interesting than doing a runner,.....helen you are doing an amazing job, ....sometimes i think charlie sounds unhappy,...i don't want to come across that i am putting you down , i would never ever do that to anyone,.......please try and give him a little bit of freedom,......today you went to put the training lead on , before you could he was off, .....after 2 mins he was back, that is brilliant........do you take hattie out with him ??? may be hattie would show him the way,....helen i wish you all the best
Re: Messed Up I'm inclined to play it safe. I want a line of sight to my dog at all times. Personally, I would not let my dog off a lead or long line in an unfenced area unless I knew he would stay in sight and had a good recall (or, if he found something enticing to eat, could be easily approached without running off and then put back on lead). I am lucky to have a people-oriented dog who (mostly) keeps an eye on us so Obi is very frequently off-lead. But, even so, there are many times and places where this is too risky.
Re: Messed Up Morning Helen, I think you are caught between a rock and a hard place.You have built really strong foundations with Charlies recall,and you can practice and practice on the line for security but you are never really going to know until you get to the stage where he is off the line....and that feels scarey for you because of what has gone before...... While he has been on the line or contained you have been able to relax because the abscond fear isn't there and I think you are like me,by getting 100% success in the excercises and proofing and proofing you have been able to feel in control and that the worse that will happen is he will refuse to recall not your biggest fear that he will run away My fear when we went 'live' was blowing the whistle and him not coming.......I would have felt like all the care I had put into the training was for nothing.....are you feeling like that?if you are DONT!he might be slow,he might even refuse but that doesn't mean it's not working.Failed recalls are part of the process,Pippa even gives us a strategy to follow ie analyze about why it failed......what happened,where to back up to succeed....I've had to refocus Dexter this week.....he's been on the lead for a week while I was away and there's been a few times he's been having far too much fun having a sniff to come back to me......immediately,he did come back,just not as sharply as I like.....so we've had to back up. In answer to your question about will he learn better off the long line......I think it's not a case of learning better i think it's a case of that is the next step.....think about a Total Recall chapter that is in on the book but has just been written for you 'Releasing Charlie from the Training Lead' ;D ;D ;D approach it like all the other excercises.....high value treats ( I would say lots of them),really non distracting environment ( this might mean you have to go my way and get up at the crack of sparrows fart to eliminate the prescence of other dogs).... Somewhere that is fenced off if possible...... In amongst all my waffle here and talk of failure I have forgotten to say THE most important thing......YOU ARE SUCCEEDING that boy of yours was a hardened absconded and now you have got him coming back to you and responding to a whistle.....the response you got 2 mins...is what some people would be delighted about .......they would do anything to have that so please see the positive in it. I nearly burst into tears The day I went out into the park and blew my whistle for the first time.....you'd have laughed your head off,it was the easiest recall ever,he was only about 6 feet away from me.....but when he came back it was the best thing .Dexter never goes out of my sight unless he is in a bush but I will know exactly which bush....I'm not good on distances but my comfort zone is quite short....I'm better when we are out in the desert but in the park,there can be too many surprises .....ie dogs popping in from an access path,joggers s,skateboards .....absconding toddlers ( I'm serious) so I keep him closer because I know his recall will be a guarantee then......distance dilutes it.....he still comes back but he's not AS sharp.....he always look but I can see him weighing up what he wants to do more,reward himself or come to me for a treat MOST of the time he makes the right decision. You are ready to do this...you wouldn't have started the thread otherwise I don't think ....we can all talk to you ,advise you and support you but none of us can take the anxiety I sense you are feeling away,that will only go when you get your confidence,and you can only get that with practice ....we are all rooting for you....go on release that line and blow that whistle ;D x
Re: Messed Up This is Murffi when I give him his release word. http://youtu.be/qiz0Sra3m90 Less than 4 seconds and he is by the fence separating garden and field. Once he is through that fence there would be a barrier between us which diminishes the likelyhood of any command succeeding, just like distance does. He would be at the top of that field and into that hedgerow in less than 20 seconds and my chances of stopping him would be zero. So there is only one answer, I either train those whistle commands to keep him close or I keep him on the lead. I could never take the lead off and my eye off him and let him get on with it. He could be in the next county if he were out of sight for 5 minutes. Yes, he might come back after a couple of minutes to check where I am but I am not prepared to take that chance. So, I'm sorry, but I will say if you have no way to reinforce the recall and you are not sure what Charlie's reaction might be, then don't take him off the lead. At least that is what I would do, but he is not my dog.
Re: Messed Up Morning all. Lynne thanks for your advice, I promise you Charlie is definitely not an unhappy dog just a very over enthusiastic one which is a big problem. Rachael, I know exactly what you mean about out of sight, but Charlie really very rarely would mill around us when he has been off lead, he looks to the horizon and that is the only place his head is, truly I would challenge any of you very experienced dog owners to train this dog. Even two gun dog trainers have told us to put him on an electric collar as there is no other way - NO WAY :'( I wonder if anyone can imagine how difficult this has been and really we doubt he will ever be like Hattie or any of your dogs and it makes us very upset . I just wonder if we have gone as far as he can go if that makes sense, he just seems unable to function in uncontrolled areas. Angela, thank you also. David and I chatted about Charlie last night and really not sure if we should keep going with this rigorous training which is very difficult as we still cannot get Hattie & Charlie out together therefore very time consuming. I feel I just want to let him off and if he comes back in 2 minutes - great and I know all the gun dog trainers on here will take a sharp intake of breath and totally disagree with that, but he is not a gun dog he is a naughty pet : It seems to the same kind of thing as the garden exercise, the less he had access to the garden the crazier he became when he did go out there, now he is allowed out when he wants has a good charge around and comes when he's called. How will he ever learn on the end of a training line?????????????? Also he is nearly 3 years old if he hasn't got it by now will he ever??? Any way another day another drama I am sure, watch this space, at least now David and I can smile about it as we have just got so used to Charlie's ways Thank you everyone for your help and support as always. Helen xxx
Re: Messed Up Sorry Heidrun your reply came in just as I posted. I see totally what you mean, but we cannot carry on with Charlie on the end of a training line and take Hattie out at the same time, because if she moves away he goes completely nuts and I cannot hold him. We are in this situation after 2 years with it would seem no way out. I wish we had your lovely fields and paddocks to let him off and train him but we don't so what are we to do? I am determined not to get down about this but with another winter coming up and a life of our own to get on with we don't want to keep on walking separately every day we did not get a second dog to do this. I spend more time with Charlie than with my children this isn't right. I have four children one of whom has Autism and I can hand on heart say Charlie has been harder than anyone of them. Maybe we just have to take a leap of faith. Thank you so much we have some thinking to do. Helen xx
Re: Messed Up helen i have 3 children and also my dog as been harder than they ever was,.....i really feel for you
Re: Messed Up The situation with Charlie is rather unusual. He wasn't a baby when Helen first took him on, he was an out of control young adult. When she let him off the lead he literally ran away and kept running. I think it is quite hard for people to realise the potential for problems in a 'hard hunting' hunting dog until they have handled one. As Heidrun has described, the dog can be gone across a 20 acre field in a heartbeat. And every time they run off, it increases the chances that they will run off again. Whilst we don't normally recommend training leads to the extent Helen has had to use one, in Charlie's case it was necessary to keep him safe. Helen, I think you have done an amazing job so far with an incredibly difficult dog. But I also think that a large part of the reason you are doing so well is because you are keeping Charlies interest and putting so much effort in. I know I sound like a 'broken record' with this, but I don't think Charlie can be the kind of dog that you long for him to be, in the sense that you will be able to switch off completely when out with him and just let him scamper free. You will always need to 'manage' his free time to some extent. With the amount of control you have now, I would be thinking about teaching him to quarter, this way he can burn off some energy running from side to side in front of you. I know that you aren't overkeen on training and the you probably feel this would be another burden for you. But it may be something to consider? You might even enjoy it Pippa
Re: Messed Up I really like Pippa's idea of teaching Charlie to quarter, it would keep his mind AND legs occupied...
Re: Messed Up Should add, you would probably not be able to do this in cover, or gamey areas, but in the paddock or open fields, it would give him some exercise.
Re: Messed Up Oh Helen I really do feel for you I feel like I always need to manage Riley and I KNOW the he isn't even a tenth the challenge that Charlie is. You really do have my utmost respect and support for all that you have done x
Re: Messed Up Yes, totally with you Helen I have a very hard hunting dog and I can't take my eyes off her off lead. Walks are never a relaxing potter, and if you don't get a buzz out of the gundog stuff yourself it makes it even harder, and I know you've struggled to get him interested in retrieving. However, I think everyone on this forum is in awe of the amount of time and effort you've put in with Charlie, good on you
Re: Messed Up Helen I've just been reading some previous posts about Charlie and am seriously impressed by how far you have got. I once looked after 'an absconder' for a friend and it was the longest week of my life. The dreadful feeling when you realize the dog is out of sight has stayed with me forty years later! Alice
Re: Messed Up helen you know about my young Brodick! hard hunting boy too and like my sister and tarkie i cant take my eye off him on country walks. but i know that he doesnt need anything like the management of Charlie, no furry or feathery things around and he is fine so i take my hat off to you. I'm rather liking that quartering idea of pippas too....
Re: Messed Up Well...same route every morning this week. Yesterday clearly there had been fresh wildlife and the field she normally walked past was much more interesting AWOL for just 5 mins or so but out of eyeline and field next to a busy road. "Eventually" she came back and I treated her. Didn't put her on the lead and ran excitedly to the gate to try and get her out tbe vicinity but she took off back down the field towards the road again. Kept in sight this time and came back after a couple of minutes. Lead on. We have been doing quite well with sit/stop verbally and she has done this on a mini chase then when recalled just continued on. GRRR.... Got a couple days off this week I was going to reintroduce the whistle stop. Maybe back on long line recalls :
