Someone suggested I keep a record of our training and I thought it would be helpful for me to get all my notes down on virtual paper. I might also be interesting and fun to look back over time and see how far (or not) we have come! So as of writing this intro, Monty is 18 weeks and 1 day old. So 4.5 months old. He is a Working Springer, and yesterday we attended our first Gun Dog Training session with the Essex Spaniel Get Together group. It was accepted that he is a little young to be starting and we were only spectators, but when the trainer saw how (over!) confident he was, suggested we get involved to get on top of him. What we had been doing prior to this: 1. Recall 2. Recall to whistle 3. Sit 4. Sit to whistle 5. Walking to heel 6. Trying to keep him close off lead 7. Basic retrieve 8. Lots of socialisation What we've learned: 1. He is VERY confident for his age. Too confident. And this could develop into a problem 2. Linked to the above, I am too soft with him and let him get away with too much. 3. 99% of our training and outside activities is off-lead. Whilst I was aware I needed to keep him close, I did not realise how close. I have been allowing him to go too far and that has boosted his confidence. 4. Whilst we've got a good recall, we should not be needing to use it - he should not be getting that far away. What we need to be doing: 1. I need to learn to use my voice to show dissatisfaction with his current action. Not use his name in anger ever. Get his attention and bring him in nicely with happy voice. 2. He needs to do LOTS of close walking. Zig-zagging (which we were doing, but he was far too far away). If he strays, a loud angry gruff to regain his attention and bring him back with happy voice. 3. We need to work on the lead also. Even in the field. He heeds a sharp check to regain his attention. Not to hurt or pull him but to refocus him on me. 4. I need to stop relying on the recall and never allow him to get that far away. 5. Stop working on whistle commands and get verbal commands in place 100% first. 6. Very occasional retrieve indoors, in the corridor, to work on the delivery. As an aside, once I've got to grips with my new "I'm-in-charge-voice" I am going to have to tackle the biting again. When he was young we managed to get rid of it, but it seems to have resurfaced with renewed vigour in the past few days. Ignoring has no effect other than considerable bruising and bleeding of my legs and ripped clothes. I need to take charge. I have found that a sharp NO just adds to his enjoyment however. Perhaps my NO isn't nasty enough? So, this is where we are. We are we heading is anybody's guess... Stay tuned to find out! James
Re: Monty's Training Log Very interesting, look forward to reading all about your journey. [quote author=JAYMZ link=topic=10644.msg157654#msg157654 date=1429514279] Perhaps my NO isn't nasty enough? [/quote] I think it's great that you have found some training that sounds very suitable - keeping a spaniel close while young, sounds like a great idea! And I'm sure they are very experienced spaniel people, which is just what you need. But quite a few points, like gruff voices, lead checks and wondering whether you need to be nastier, are quite traditional - this is completely to be expected from this type of training, you have to go a long way to find completely positive based gundog training. Just bear in mind though, it's up to you how you train, and there is often a positive alternative to achieve the same outcome (I'm not suggesting you shouldn't get with the programme, I definitely think you should - but just be aware of the different training techniques out there, so you can choose how to implement things if you want).
Re: Monty's Training Log [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10644.msg157657#msg157657 date=1429515201] Very interesting, look forward to reading all about your journey. [quote author=JAYMZ link=topic=10644.msg157654#msg157654 date=1429514279] Perhaps my NO isn't nasty enough? [/quote] I think it's great that you have found some training that sounds very suitable - keeping a spaniel close while young, sounds like a great idea! And I'm sure they are very experienced spaniel people, which is just what you need. But quite a few points, like gruff voices, lead checks and wondering whether you need to be nastier, are quite traditional - this is completely to be expected from this type of training, you have to go a long way to find completely positive based gundog training. Just bear in mind though, it's up to you how you train, and there is often a positive alternative to achieve the same outcome (I'm not suggesting you shouldn't get with the programme, I definitely think you should - but just be aware of the different training techniques out there, so you can choose how to implement things if you want). [/quote] Absolutely, and I totally see that. That was my number one apprehension going into this. I've seen "tutorial" videos with trainers (with great dogs) kicking their dogs and this whole yanking on the slip lead business doesn't sit well with me. I will NOT do that. To be fair to the trainer, she was totally honest and open about it all. She did say that she never uses treats as rewards, but I am going to continue with that. I do see however, that Monty really does need a firm hand at this stage. He is taking the pee out of me and with him being so young, this could develop into something worse. He has VERY strong working genes and they are really coming out in force now. Firm however, does not mean nasty or aggressive. At least to me it doesn't. One thing I will say now and put in writing - I will never lay a hand on Monty. It is never necessary (despite how much I want to sometimes!) I love Monty so much. Maybe too much and that is part of the problem. But that will not change.
Re: Monty's Training Log Just an aside for JulieT, I went to my gundog class, big bloke as trainer, me having trouble with dog a bit reluctant to give dummy and he said "have you tried using a titbit" - and I saw he had a little box of titbits for his own dog Good luck Jaymz with Monty. I cannot really believe that a pup of that age is capable of the thought of 'taking the pee out of you' he is just young and doesn't know any better, you need to show him. As you say, he has very strong working genes and these just need to be guided by you. When we first went to school and wouldn't stop talking and jumping about, were we 'taking the pee out of the teacher'? I think not, we were there to be taught and educated, thus the same with a dog I find that traditional spaniel trainers do tend to be very hard on the dogs, shaking them, picking them up by the ears etc, they to that because they can, try doing that with a heavy Lab! Dogs learn better when in a calm environment, not being man handled. I am not a force free trainer, I do believe in the word 'no' which I think helps the dog to understand, but on the other hand I think we should be kind to our dogs. Think of playing the game 'hot and cold' when you get nearer it is 'hot', when not on the right lines it is 'cold' and that helps us far more quickly to get to the desired point. So 'no' or 'ah ah' - 'good dog and reward' lets the dog learn clearly
Re: Monty's Training Log I would agree that dogs don't take the pee. They just do what's rewarding so we need to work out how to be rewarding to them so they want to do what we want. It's a challenge that's for sure I think that dogs need consistency more than anything so they're absolutely clear on when they're hot or cold(I like that analogy ). I met a very experienced spaniel trainer recently and she was clear - in the garden was play time, out of the garden was work and the dogs were under orders. She was very quiet and calm with her dogs but the rules were the rules and there was no negotiation. Heidrun often talks about the traditional walk being potentially detrimental to training too and I think that's all part of the same thing. Obi spaniel may never go for a walk in his life, not in the same way Riley gets to bimble around but he'd rather go hunting anyway ;D
Re: Monty's Training Log Finding a suitable trainer is such a blessing, I had such a dilemma couldn't decide whether to go down the gundog training route or go with my local trainer. Mabel has now completed her puppy foundation and we have just started KC Bronze award with the local guy mainly because I like his style and we are on the same wave length. I'll be reading your log with interest my lab girl is 5 months at the end of the month, she is also very confident, nice to see the similarities and differences. Good luck
Re: Monty's Training Log Well I don't know what's happened to him, but he's a changed man!! Earlier this morning we were turfed out by the cleaner. I used the opportunity to take him out to places where he'd be on the lead. In fact we went to the garden centre and bout a new lead. His on-lead walking is AMAZING. I'm staggered. I think I checked him maybe twice and that's it. He's understood already. Then we've just been out again into the fields. We started on-lead as he's never been on the lead in the fields. Again, it was perfect. The lead was just drooping with no tension at all. I'm in a state of shock! Then we did off-lead in the field heading back. This is usually the worst as he is confident and knows the way back. By changing the tone of my voice to get his attention, we did the whole 300m or so without him straying more than about 1.5-2m radius from me. Fan-bloomin-tastic! And even better, his tail was wagging furiously the entire time! One slight setback is he now refuses to sit to command which is odd as he's been really good at that and was excellent yesterday under pressure. Other than that, pleased would be an understatement!
Re: Monty's Training Log To get down with what all the kids are saying... OMG! Seriously. O. M. G. We're still on,y day two. My post above was at 2.30pm. It's now 7pm. Monty is like... He's just suddenly matured into a sensible dog. He is completely different. It is astonishing! I can categorically say that we have had "The. Best. Day. " He has been so good. So so so so good. I a, almost a bit ready eyed! We did another off lead walk, just in the field (garden). We have a small section which we've fenced off for when he was a puppy so it was nice and secure. We've decided that that area is fun space. We discovered the hose today and he had a lovely time. He's had stinky fishy chews, lots of cuddles and a doze in the sun. Outside of the picket fence is sensible time. Normally in our field, right outside the house, he is silly and races round. Then the next farmer's field is sensible time. Not any more. We did another quick off-lead walk. I used my voice every time he strayed more than I liked - about 2m - and every time he came back in, tail wagging. He seems to like and understand what's going on. He likes that I've taken charge. I think he knows where he stands now, whereas before it was probably a grey area. Before, I can see it now, I was very mamby-pamby with him. It was all nicely nicely. Even when he was running riot, tearing round and biting me. So, amazing progress today, just by using my voice to show dissatisfaction at what he was doing or where he was going. A sharp "grr" or a "psssshht" followed by a nice gentle command and lots of praise. It worked every single time. Today we achieved: 1. Walking on-lead like a charm 2. Walking off-lead and. Or straying more than 2m radius 3. BONUS: Walking through the house from kitchen to outside, calmly (usually tears through) 4. BONUS: Walking through the house from kitchen to outside past sitting cat and taking. I notice (normally Tom & Jerry chasing ensues) 5. BONUS: calm time outside in the sun with Monty and cats all together calmly. No chasing or wrestling moves on the cats. Obviously we need to keep working on it all, but it really is fenominul fermominal phernomernil amazing! I am so pleased. My wife is amazed too! The difference is truly remarkable. Admittedly, the off lead walk was pretty hard going for me. There was a lot of correcting (verbal) as he's so used to doing his own thing. It's not like he just was suddenly perfect. He is lovely and tired now, which shows he's worked hard. Good boy Monts. I have however done no work today so we may not be able to eat for the next week! But hey, some things are just more important aren't they?! God I love this boy 8)
Re: Monty's Training Log It's wonderful that you're so happy with how things are going Great to hear! Dogs don't have a concept of leadership or 'taking charge' or taking the micky out of anyone or anything The concept of 'respect for a leader' has no meaning for dogs (or any animal). But dogs DO like clarity, consistency and predictability. That is what you are doing different now. I also agree with what Stacia wrote below. The concept of 'teacher' is a good one. Don't worry about trying to be a leader. Just be a good teacher. [quote author=Stacia link=topic=10644.msg157681#msg157681 date=1429521072] I cannot really believe that a pup of that age is capable of the thought of 'taking the pee out of you' he is just young and doesn't know any better, you need to show him. As you say, he has very strong working genes and these just need to be guided by you. When we first went to school and wouldn't stop talking and jumping about, were we 'taking the pee out of the teacher'? I think not, we were there to be taught and educated, thus the same with a dog [/quote]
Re: Monty's Training Log [quote author=Oberon link=topic=10644.msg157856#msg157856 date=1429565336] It's wonderful that you're so happy with how things are going Great to hear! Dogs don't have a concept of leadership or 'taking charge' or taking the micky out of anyone or anything The concept of 'respect for a leader' has no meaning for dogs (or any animal). But dogs DO like clarity, consistency and predictability. That is what you are doing different now. I also agree with what Stacia wrote below. The concept of 'teacher' is a good one. Don't worry about trying to be a leader. Just be a good teacher. [quote author=Stacia link=topic=10644.msg157681#msg157681 date=1429521072] I cannot really believe that a pup of that age is capable of the thought of 'taking the pee out of you' he is just young and doesn't know any better, you need to show him. As you say, he has very strong working genes and these just need to be guided by you. When we first went to school and wouldn't stop talking and jumping about, were we 'taking the pee out of the teacher'? I think not, we were there to be taught and educated, thus the same with a dog [/quote] [/quote] Yes, a good teacher. I like that. He just needs guiding to what is expected and acceptable.
Re: Monty's Training Log Well I suppose it's to be expected. Forward three steps, back two. It's been tough this morning. I'm struggling with a horrible migraine (I never get migraines) but still took him out to work on the off-lead keeping close. He was OK, but not as good. I wonder if my headache is affecting my concentration. He did completely ignore me a couple of times and was starting to stray further then I'd like. Still a massive improvement on before, but not as good as yesterday or I'd like. There's a bit of a breeze at the top of the hill which is making the long grass sway. It was just too tempting for him. And then he picked up a scent trail. He never strayed really far - maybe max was about 6-8m, but I want to keep him closer than that for now. I'm sure this is to be expected and I just need to keep plugging away. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Re: Monty's Training Log That's right You're playing the long game here. Don't be discouraged by the inevitable not-so-great sessions (we all want to think we won't have them, but we all do). I find that it's not worth having a training session if I'm not in the right mood or am off colour...or if my dog is not in the right state either. Wait till later.
Re: Monty's Training Log [quote author=Oberon link=topic=10644.msg157939#msg157939 date=1429614367] That's right You're playing the long game here. Don't be discouraged by the inevitable not-so-great sessions (we all want to think we won't have them, but we all do). I find that it's not worth having a training session if I'm not in the right mood or am off colour...or if my dog is not in the right state either. Wait till later. [/quote] Yeah, I'll stick to that advice in the future I think. Thanks.
Re: Monty's Training Log So after all my stress with Monty being rubbish, it seems to have clicked in the past few days/week. I don't think I have been working enough when I was taking him out, and expecting him to stay close for no real reason other than I look like George Clooney, have the best personaility of anyone I know and smell of sausages I am now working super hard. Both of us are coming back after a 10min session sweating and knackered. He is having a fab time and I must admit, so am I. The farmer is leaving the two fields adjacent to the house for hay so the grass is getting nice and long which is really helping keep Monts both interested and working hard. I've invested in a shoulder bag and a bigger selection of (now adult!) dummies. He is loving it! For a bit of a change (for both of us) we went into my office in London yesterday. Trains, tubes, Baker Street pedestrians. He was a delight, took it all in his stride and so well behaved. I was a very proud daddy. And to top today off, his birthday present to me arrived - new car crate, so I'm going to go and get that set up in the car now. We're happy again
Re: Monty's Training Log [quote author=JAYMZ link=topic=10644.msg160057#msg160057 date=1430388155] I am now working super hard. Both of us are coming back after a 10min session sweating and knackered. [/quote] Now that's the way to do it. Congratulations ;D
Re: Monty's Training Log Fantastic! And London too how brave/scary is that!! Sounds as though you're coming on in leaps and bounds....oh perhaps not the best expression in the context of Springer training
I think a lot has happened since my posts above. I've posted about them in the Essex Spaniel Get Together thread, but not here. Last group training session with the Spaniel club people was amazeballs. It was soooo well I got a handshake and a high five from the trainer. Little 5 month old Monts was up there with the older boys. I real proud father moment. At the end of the session, the trainer approached me and told us that she'd entered us into a competition in August! Now this seriously appeals to my competitive side...! She also told us to start working on "seen blinds" (I think that's right? - where I walk him out, place a seen dummy, walk him back and then send him back to retrieve). We've been doing a few and he loves it. Anyway, you may recall a post earlier (possibly in this thread, or maybe the Keeping Your Spaniel Close one) where I was distraught after a previous training session. This was very early on and the trainer had suggested taking Monts to unfamiliar places so he's less confident. I'd taken him to a wooded area at the back of my house and he's gone loopy and completely ignored me. The advice on here was generally that that was a bad idea and it was inevitable there there would be too many scent trails for him to follow. Well that was a good few weeks ago and we headed back up there this morning. Using my newly learned knowledge and keeping myself interesting, we had an unbelievable session! The woods were dense and beautiful. Loads of varied cover, streams, steep banks, fallen trees, long grass. He had a wonderful time. He stayed close when I asked. He hunted on command. Walked nicely on lead and we did some pretty difficult retrieves, that in hindsight, I was probably expecting a bit much. I have also been using heidrun's suggestion for improving delivery by lying down with huge results. I'm slowly working up to standing up, but not quite there yet, but it has been a vast improvement. He can't resist jumping on me! So proud of him recently and I'm buzzing with excitement for more. And today started off rubbish that my 1-2-1 training was cancelled, but this session with Monts in a stunning woods has completely redeemed it.
Really pleased for you that all your efforts are paying off and you and Monts are having such a great time...aren't Springers just the most fabulous dogs ever and always so happy and cheerfuls and ridiculously cuddly too (obviously labs come a lose second but do lack the high octane!)
Haven't posted in a while. Have been a busy bee. After riding the wave of success after the previous Spaniel training day, I must admit we were a bit lax and cocky. Roll on the next session and Monty was terrible. Embarrassingly bad! Obviously, completely my fault. We really hadn't done much training in the month between and I'd been letting him have loads of free running fun instead. Clearly too much. After that terrible day, we went back to the grind and I'm, once again, staggered at his intelligence and quick learning. Firstly, part of the working test in August is a water retrieve. We have no water near us that permit dogs, so we ventured into Kent with my friend's lab Tilly who is part mermaid in the hope that Monts would follow her in. It took two hours of coaxing, but once he was in, we couldn't get him out! He was even following commands swimming! We've continued working on steadiness and he is really good. I have to pinch myself that he's not even 6 months. Next up are blind retrieves and the "out" command. We've done a LOT of this as it was a real struggle on my side. I really had no idea what I was supposed to be doing so was just confusing him. I think we've now cracked it and I have him finding blinds I've planted at the end of the field about 100m away. Getting cocky again, I was watching my David Lissett DVD last night and skipped ahead a bit. He was doing "lefts and rights" and "go back". Well being Billy Bignuts and despite it being 9.30pm, I took Monts out to see how he'd fare. First attempt of a left/right he just looked at me puzzled but as soon as he started tentatively to move I praised and encouraged and you could see the light bulb click on and his tail wag. It was wonderful to see and he suddenly understood what I was asking. I waited until this morning to attempt the "go back" with a dummy launched over his head. Again the confused look with sudden realisation of what I was asking. He was great again, albeit we're only doing little ones. I think, although haven't checked, that the next step would be to place the dummy and walk him away from it, similar to the "seen blinds" I've been doing. Although that's something for the future. The downside of all this excitement and retrieving is that we've been neglecting hunting unfortunately. The grass in farmer's fields I normally use is just too long now and he's really struggling to get through it. One field has just been cut for silage so I will start in earnest again this weekend. I think hunting is 40% of the test and was the big issue we had last training session, so I really need to get on top of it again. Finally, I'm seeing a great improvement in his delivery. We are far from perfect, but I am getting about 60% delivered into hand, which is far far far better from the disaster it used to be. Baby steps and all of that... Finally, finally I just have to mention how much Monty has changed in the past two weeks or so. He is almost 6 months (5 months and 30 days!) and he just seem to mature overnight. He's gone from a horrid, lunatic teething CrocoMont, to a really sensitive and pleasant chap. The change is remarkable. He listens, understands and reacts to commands and is extremely affectionate. It all seems to correlate to the end of teething. Wonderful! (he still has his moments of course, and I doubt that will ever change!) Oh actually (finally, finally, finally) I've just realised I've only mentioned all good stuff like an annoying proud father! At the swimming lesson with Tilly we were at a local park in Kent. We had REAL and SERIOUS issues with him running off after other dogs. Where we live and train, he is not exposed to any other dogs. We are on our own all the time. This is something I REALLY need to deal with. It was embarrassing, bad behaviour and could be dangerous. Some of the dogs at the park did not look pleasant at all. Definitely high on my "get fixed quick" list! So other than that last point, and a bit of a dip from being too cocksure from getting lots of praise, we've had a reality check and have been having a great time.
