Hi all. Bessie's a sweet thing and I've never worried about aggression with her. She can be a bit fearful of noises and in general a little anxious, but her confidence is there, too. One of her worst habits is jumping up on visitors, or even us at home when super excited (like if she hasn't seen us in a while, or is just having a case of the zoomies). Typical lab stuff, and I always thought it was just super friendliness. And when she jumps up, she often bops the person she's jumping on in the nose or eye with the end of her closed snout. I started looking up this behavior and came across lots of warnings about "muzzle punching" being a "precursor to a bite" and indicating "step back, increase distance." This does not seem like the reason behind Bessie's muzzle-punching; it seems more like an overly friendly and overly excited thing. But do I have that right, or could it really be a precursor to aggression? She's 9 months old now, but has done this since a wee pup. (And yeah, we are working on it, and she's improving a lot as far as keeping all four on the floor and just wiggling her entire body around in excitement, ha! But once in a while it still happens. My son came home from 10 days with his dad and she's so excited; she did it to me this morning while I was trying to get down to her level to give her some attention without her jumping on him. Bopped me so hard in the nose it brought tears to my eyes.)
In all my reading I have NEVER seen that mentionned. Don't suppose you could give a link where you found that? It's never too late to learn but no way do I buy that. It's an accident from an overly exuberant greeting. People who bend their heads down when dogs jump up get bopped. I've had some nice swollen and split lips myself. The dog needs to be taught to not jump up when greeting and the people need to learn how to manage the dog. Precursor to aggression my foot. IN fact, when I saw muzzle punching I thought this was going to be about people punching the dog. Now that would be aggression on the human's part.
http://www.dailydogdiscoveries.com/tag/dog-behavior-muzzle-punch/ Well I found this ^ I've read a fair bit of Patricia McConnell and must have missed this. Nevertheless, I still think, without even seeing but going from your description of how and when it happens, that is overly enthusiastic greeting with Bessie.
Thanks for the reassurance! I saw it here, and they specifically connected muzzle-punching while jumping up as a problematic behavior: http://www.successjustclicks.com/hey-thats-not-dominance/ "*Jumping up may be a serious problem if your dog is doing what’s called a “muzzle punch.” A muzzle punch is when a dog forcefully bops into a person with a closed mouth–this typically, though not exclusively, happens when jumping up. A muzzle punch is a distance increasing behavior–“get away from me!” and a potential precursor to a bite, so it is a concerning behavior (still not dominance)" And on this other page on Patricia McConnell's site, but she presents a more nuanced view here and describes the difference between "attention getting" muzzle "pokes" and a "punch" that is pre-aggressive: http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/th...unches-air-snaps-and-tooth-clatters-revisited
Willow does this. It's when she's over threshold, either due to excitement or fear. A sudden leap, from nowhere, and you get a nose in your eye. I don't think standard teaching not to jump has any impact, really, because when it happens, she's just so wound up. It's very difficult to anticipate and is usually just the once, so hard to manage. I guess if you know she's getting to (or going to get to) that state, then you could pop her on her lead and stand on it until she's calm again.
I am aware of muzzle punches and the behaviour as described for Bessie certainly isn'the a precursor to a bite. At the worst it is attention seeking as described by Trisha McConnell. It certainly sounds more like over excitement with a hint of poor manners that jumps high enough to hit with her muzzle. I never bend down towards a dog to ensure that there can not be accidental connection during greetings, I always kneel by choice so I'm on much the same level. Google can be a wonderful tool but can also provide some worrying articles for the unwary.
Ah, yes. Over threshold, and when it happens it's hard to anticipate! Seems to be excitement; I don't see fear, just WAY overexcited. It usually happens when she's either full-on zoomies or working to it. That was this morning; my son came downstairs, she got so fired up, and Burke started playing with her, and I was trying to get hold of her to calm her, and BAM! Popped in the nose. Problem is I have her naked in the house most of the time and that's mostly when it happens. If I know I have visitors I'll put on a harness and/or collar but with her and Burke in and out all day and playing so boisterously outside (and his jaw getting stuck in her collar that time), I just leave her naked now. She does have an unusually large amount of scruff but that can be hard to get hold of in time. Thanks for the reassurance. My gut told me it certainly wasn't a precursor to aggression but it's helpful to hear from others who agree.
Oh and jumping high enough - yes. She's a jumper. She will choose to jump from my four-foot high porch to the ground, OVER the steps. Leap is more like it. It's kind of incredible. She should do agility; I think she'd love it. If I'm holding an object to fetch up high, she will jump up at it and twist around athletically like a frisbee dog, just instinctually. I joke that she's on springs.
Maybe consider getting a limited slip lead (like this: http://tuffstuff-ltd.co.uk/p/23/limited-slip-lead) to quickly pop over her head when she gets like that. You'd have to make sure she couldn't jerk against it, just like with a collar, so stand on it so that it's not putting any tension on her, but there's only a tiny bit of slack so she can't hurt herself if she does leap. Is she's anything like Willow, it's nothing to do with bending over - you can be stood bolt upright and she'll just suddenly leap and hit you in the eye!
My friends very large two year old lab is exactly the same, I've learnt now when he's about to do it, usually when I arrive with my girl for a walk. The excitement just gets too much for him.
Yup been on the receiving end of a few bobs myself when Bailey is over excited - tends to be when I have been working late and come home - he's been asleep, I come home and he goes nuts with his greeting. I've always looked at it as just over-excitement but it does come out of the blue. I try to sit down on the settee before Bailey gets to me to say hello!
Snowie does this to me on command. I say: Give me a kiss. And he gently bumps my lips. I love it! If he gets a glint in his eye and a certain way in his tail, then I know to keep my face away lest I lose some teeth! Because he'll bump me with mouth wide open and it won't be gentle. He's being cheeky. I do not believe in the least it is aggressive. But I've not read those articles yet!! I know some dogs that jump up and want to "kiss" - they are particularly excited to see me, like the dog up the road. Also not aggressive, but I'm not keen on other dogs kissing me; kissing is reserved for Snowie only.
Harley has bumped me a few times with her muzzle and it is sore, but I have never ever thought it may be aggression. Excitement yes. I take special care to have trained her to not jump up on me since we got her because that is something I really don't like. Now that she is a bit older I also request a kiss from her, but on my cheek and I normally get a squishy nose and a lick. But I have also not read the articles and Harley has not displayed any aggressive behaviour towards me, DH or the cats. I also sometimes wonder about spatial awareness in dogs. As people, we all differ in our visual perceptual development, skills and functioning. And as young dogs, I believe that it must be the same as a child learning about their physical body in space. And if a dog didn't have the boundaries and chance to develop those skills it may lead to an older dog that doesn't judge spatial limits well. Also why when the zoomies happen, and all reasoning flies out the ears, the dogs don't process logically and reasonably.
I think, having one dog that does this and one that has just accidentally caught me now and again, it's clear to me that it's a very different behaviour to what you see in most dogs. I don't see it as a cause for concern in Willow - I know her triggers so can anticipate it and it's absolutely, certainly not aggression. But nor is it a simple accident from a regular jumping up. It's a dog that launches itself at your face with no discernible warning, one single time, and who "punches" you - normally in the nose or eye! - with their nose. Because Willow does it when she's been scared by something (it's only experience that has taught me the difference in how she looks when she's excited and in this particular state of fear, because it looks remarkably similar, with wagging tail, open mouth and high energy), I believe it's simply a way of her releasing the nervous energy that's built inside her. Even when she's actually excited, that causes stress signals in the body in a similar way to fear, and it seems to be her way of dealing with it. As much as I'd rather it wasn't
Lilly sometimes bumps the back of my legs quite hard with her nose, mostly in the kitchen - she walks behind me, and I take it as a hint I am ignoring her and she wants her tea.
I get the back-of-leg bump from Bessie too. Usually an attention-getting thing for sure, it seems. Yup, you've described it. It's not just "accidental" as part of jumping up. She knows exactly where she's aiming and she does it HARD in the nose or eye. It's really quite obnoxious. Because Willow does it when she's been scared by something (it's only experience that has taught me the difference in how she looks when she's excited and in this particular state of fear, because it looks remarkably similar, with wagging tail, open mouth and high energy), I believe it's simply a way of her releasing the nervous energy that's built inside her. Even when she's actually excited, that causes stress signals in the body in a similar way to fear, and it seems to be her way of dealing with it. As much as I'd rather it wasn't [/QUOTE] Thanks for this. I will keep an eye on it with Bessie and notice if I see this happening with fear situations as well. So far I haven't; she seems to want to hide behind me and/or run away from something fearful, and does more cowering. Yes, exactly! She wants her nose bonked into my/the person's face. Limited slip lead is a great idea; thanks! I need something quick. I'm constantly wrestling a Roman harness on her when people are pulling up to the house. It's tiring! And this way if my son was coming downstairs and I knew I needed to control her, I could do so quickly.
