Cupar has now been to the vets three times in the past two weeks. Each time has been an endurance test for me. Who needs body building when you have a 26kg labrador. I took Cupar for a run after the vet visit. On arrival I came upon a guy and his labrador. I found out this dog was actually only over 6 months old. so I asked if I could release Cupar and let the two play together , I explained that up until recently he had good recall but I was not confident at the moment that he would return when I asked. I did think gundog lot. We have loads of gundog folk around here. The old fashioned kind. I did ask him how he got his dog to heel. It really isn't anyway I want to train my dogs. This poor wee dog looks as if it's looking at the owner adoringly. Well no it's not. It's watching every move and paying close attention because if it doesn't, some form of punishment is given. It's kept in a kennel then brought out for training. It's not allowed to play. It's out for training in a very busy playing fields, park. He walked to heel without a lead, if he didn't the lead was slipped around his neck and pulled back and told to heel. I was informed he's been training dogs for years. Well you can keep it. I'm sticking with my delinquent dog. Two dogs , one afraid to make a step wrong and cowers when it does. The other running about like a loon after a bright green frisbee. Trying his hardest to sit still long enough for the frisbee to be thrown. All this is done with a smile on his face and a bigger smile on mine. Mines going home to cuddle up on the sofa with me and the other out to a kennel with no human company , until the next training session. I know a few gundog folk and they laugh at me. I have all this stuff to carry. I have dogs that take me for a walk. The walking belt really made them laugh. Comments of see you in the next village. So I walked into the vets today with a dog that wanted to say hello to everyone. I got my hand yanked on numerous occasions and I even had that same dog pee on my trousers when we came out of the vets. I had a bum wiggling squirmy dog while trying to wait as patiently as he can while I threw his toy. More importantly I had a dog that is full of all the joys of life and I wouldn't change him for the world. I may not have a dog that walks to heel, sits and stays in the one place without moving a single muscle but he's happy and that makes me happy. So if that's the way gundogs are still trained you can keep it , I'll guddle along as best as I know without trying to remove the smile and the joy from my dogs life.
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him Yes. That. What Cupcase said. Exactly. (Pongo, forgodsake COME BACK HERE!!!! ;-) )
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him It's true, my dog is trained without aversives (as far as I can manage) and I honestly think his personality, confidence and character shine through as a result. I've seen a few traditionally trained gundogs that honestly look terrified to move (as you say). But - and this is the thing - my trainer is a positive gundog trainer. Not a gundog trainer that uses some positive techniques, she is a gundog trainer that does not use aversives - at all. And her dogs are perfectly trained. As good as any traditionally trained dog.... So, unfortunately, I think the standard is no aversives AND a very well trained dog. Not that I'm there, you understand, it's just perfectly possible to achieve without using punishment.
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him Your dog sounds lovely, and sadly, it is true that there is some harsh treatment in gundog training. But its also true to say that many if not most working gun dogs are not cowering and fearful And happily, it is entirely possible to have a dog that walks to heel, sits and stays, without moving a muscle, and still have a happy dog. Positive does not, or at least should not, equal permissive There is a big movement for change in gundog training now, and those of you that would like to learn more about training gun dogs without force might enjoy the Positive Gundogs Facebook group.
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him I too love my silly wiggly beast of a crazy lab!!!! ;D ;D ;D And she has lots of friends who love her just as silly as she is! : : She'll do better as she grows up....maybe.... : :
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him [quote author=sunsetpines link=topic=10272.msg150844#msg150844 date=1426869753] She'll do better as she grows up....maybe.... : : [/quote] This is what I've been saying about Pongo for 12 months. I'm still saying it. An excellent example of the triumph of hope over experience. :
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him Yep, well, if I could find a positive gundog trainer nearby I would go. I am so blooming annoyed that I can't find this that I have given up! I have a happy dog that behaves well - yippee, if that's the best we can do then actually, I am pleased. I would have to say that I hate people who treat animals this way, it's what I feel most helpless about in life.
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him My first labradors father was a working gundog. He was trained by one of the nicest men I know. He had a dog that did look adoringly at him. His training was ahead of it's time. Unfortunetly he seems to be the exception. In the past I looked in awe at these dogs and how well behaved they were. So I have asked how they train. It isn't the way I want to go. These are the same people that make derogatory comments about the positively trained dogs not obeying the commands of their owners. In the area I'm from most , mainly men all train this way. One of them actually said he had cut back on working his dogs as it wasn't the same anymore.
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him Please, don't tar as all with the same brush. I have four extremely happy dogs. All of them are working gundogs. They have won scurries, working tests and one has a field trial award. I believe he might be the only dog on the forum who has accomplished that as yet. Just because a gundog is well trained does not mean it is treated harshly. They all have got their own very different personalities which have not been quashed in any shape or form by my training. Interestingly though the one dog who was severely screwed up when I rescued him is my cocker Muffi and he came from pet homes not gundog people when I took him on.
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him Yes, but how do you find these trainers that are good? I emailed around and didn't get any replies.
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him What part of the country are you in Jane? And are you looking for a force free trainer, or would you be happy with a traditional trainer who was prepared to help you on your terms?
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him Heidrun I don't mean to tar every gundog owner the same. I never thought of gundogs as being harshly treated. To be honest I had always been in awe of the people that had such well trained dogs. Since getting Cupar I've been paying more attention to how other dogs are trained. Today was like a lightbulb moment. I didn't see a dog being abused, I saw a 6 month old pup being corrected in a way that I find harsh. I saw not a dog that is happy but one that pays attention because of fear of more corrections.
Re: My delinquent dog and proud of him My journey - as a pet owner - into the world of gundog training has been very interesting. I've met loads of people, and loads of dogs. I think I've seen a fair range of more traditional trainers, and some fantastic positive only trainers, and some not so good positive only trainers. I've seen as many pet dog trainers. On the whole, gundog trainers are very skilled, and, on the whole, the pet dog trainers I've met have not been. But to be fair, I think I have not had access to the best pet dog trainers (who all had waiting lists). I've never met a gundog trainer that other gundog trainers would consider harsh. But the harshest of the trainers I did meet, were too much for me. Far too much for me. Even the best of the traditional gundog trainers (and he was very good, I think) bopped Charlie on the nose and insisted he was put on a slip lead - at the time I thought that was fine. And to be honest I do have to say that Charlie thought being bopped on the nose was one of the best things that ever happened to him (so that didn't work, but he came to no harm ether) and loves slip leads. : Disloyal dog... ;D I have met some amazing gundogs, that have not been at all unhappy. I've met many that have been unhappy, closed down, and miserable. Although very unscientific, it seems to me that it's the students of the more traditional gundog trainers that have damaged dogs, not the gundog trainers themselves (although it may be the case that the gundog trainers that do damage dogs, move them on so I don't get to meet them - or maybe not, maybe harsher methods in inexperienced hands is the real risk). For me, this is even more reason to stick to aversive free training - as a novice, likely to make mistakes, there is a limit as to how much damage you can do. So my dog might get some treats for things I don't really want to reward. Big deal...
