NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

With children the START behaviours are harder to engender. (I want you to start clearing up your bedroom every day)

The STOP behaviours are easy (a child can stop whining in a nano second if s/he wants to)

I think it's the opposite with dogs

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=hd link=topic=6131.msg80279#msg80279 date=1400762618]
What would you say Emily (or kikopup as I know her!) is wrong about?
[/quote]

Collars

I think she's good at what she does, I like her videos on Youtube however well edited they are she's also good at marketing herself (nothing wrong with that either) - but she doesn't have all the answers. Can we get back to Pippa's article on 'no' now?

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Pippa, thanks for your last post and your patience. I've read your articles and feel I'm gaining a better understanding of both the methods and the terminology.

Can you recommend some texts that are a little more academic in nature? The research papers etc. I'd like to do a bit of 'studying'

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Gordon, if you google B.F. Skinner - operant conditioning, you will find several year's worth of studying.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

I'm curious about this.
Tsst tsst is just a sound, like no no or agh agh.
Unless the dog is conditioned to something negative following the sound then what is said should not matter. As you said the lady is committed to training without aversive then how did her dog respond so effectively to 'that' sound.
Really interested in this!

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Me too! Back to the 'no' article and positive / negative punishments.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

I could say 'no' to my Labs and it wouldn't worry them at all. I have found nothing which worries them except if I sneeze, one looks very worried and the other jumps up at me as he thinks it is the most exciting noise.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

The Tsst noise is very aversive for some dogs. Many dogs dislike the nose of air escaping, for example aerosol sprays, and hot air balloons are common aversives for dogs. The reason for this is probably that in nature the noise is associated with danger.

It is similar for example to the nose that some snakes and other reptiles make when disturbed, and that some predators make when offended (cats spitting sounds quite similar to escaping air)

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Swans too. Tatze is very wary of swans.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

No as a command is as important as the other 4 corner stones of dog training, those being Recall, Heel, Sit, Stay (Leave it is the same command just a different sound to the dog)
Without those other corner stones in place your going to be saying NO far more often than you should be with diminishing effect and that it where the training falls down.
I'm not suggesting anyone tries this but if your dog knows what heel means and you walk into a field of sheep it should not chase them if they bolt. If the sheep bolt which they do then the chase instinct in a dog is unleashed. So what do you do then without a NO, AGH AGH or a LEAVE IT.
Saying CHEESE ain't gonna cut it.
Unless that's your word no NO, LEAVE IT or AGH AGH.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=editor link=topic=6131.msg80467#msg80467 date=1400788993]

The Tsst noise is very aversive for some dogs. Many dogs dislike the nose of air escaping, for example aerosol sprays, and hot air balloons are common aversives for dogs. The reason for this is probably that in nature the noise is associated with danger.

It is similar for example to the nose that some snakes and other reptiles make when disturbed, and that some predators make when offended (cats spitting sounds quite similar to escaping air)
[/quote]
Just tried it on my dogs and they wagged their tails.
I'm not convinced.
Any noise heard by a dog has a positive or negative response depending on the outcome.
Think introduction to shot.
Done right.......positive.........Done wrong........negative and quite often irreversible

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=Tillydyes link=topic=6131.msg80471#msg80471 date=1400789745]
what do you do then without a NO, AGH AGH or a LEAVE IT.
Saying CHEESE ain't gonna cut it.
[/quote]

There is absolutely nothing in the article that suggests you can't have an appropriate response in this situation.

Mine is a clicker trained kissy clicking noise, that has been rewarded with hot roast chicken over months, and results in an instant whip round - including in the presence of sheep.

(All before injury, I have to say, what I have now remains to be seen).

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=JulieT link=topic=6131.msg80483#msg80483 date=1400790482]
[quote author=Tillydyes link=topic=6131.msg80471#msg80471 date=1400789745]
what do you do then without a NO, AGH AGH or a LEAVE IT.
Saying CHEESE ain't gonna cut it.
[/quote]

There is absolutely nothing in the article that suggests you can't have an appropriate response in this situation.

Mine is a clicker trained kissy clicking noise, that has been rewarded with hot roast chicken over months, and results in an instant whip round - including in the presence of sheep.

(All before injury, I have to say, what I have now remains to be seen).
[/quote]
Does that work (kissey clicking sound) in situations where your dog is in chase/prey drive mode.
That's the question. Will your dog stay at heel?

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Or would a stern NO!!! Saved you months of training (and roast chicken) on one thing and enabled you to move on to more fun things faster.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Go tell you dog "no" in a very, very, very, stern voice, backed up with some punishment so he knows you mean it.

I'll go have a big, fun, game clicker training mine.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

You added punishment for some reason.......I didn't.
Don't take it so personally. This is a discussion on the merits of the word (or sound) of NO.
Have fun with your dog. Mine sure have fun with me.
It's a rare occasion I need to use a command like NO as mine are trained in the basics.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

We're now getting into a discussion of whether positive punishment works better than positive reinforcement.

Neither works better. Either is only as powerful as the consequence (potential unpleasant experience, potential pleasant experience) is meaningful to the dog.

If you can make a dog fear your displeasure as much as I can make my dog want roast chicken and games - then I believe you that it will work just as well.

However.....earlier there was a comment about obedience standards being lower in the past as dogs were not as motivated to perform when positive punishment and negative reinforcement (like removing a painful stimulus when you get the desired behaviour) were used. I'm sorry, I can't remember who said that. On Sunday I'm going to ask around at my dog club about that. Our dog club (obedience focus) is 50 years old and there are many older members who did obedience trialling in 'the old days' but who now use modern methods based on positive reinforcement and negative punishment (like removal of a desired thing like attention). Keen for their views - I'll report back.

I've definitely observed a difference in attitude between dogs trained using fun and food and dogs whose handlers use stern tones to deal with non-compliance. The fun-trained dogs are heeling with a spring in their step. The sternly handled dogs are slow, reluctant and sniffing the ground.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

I don't think Tillydyes was advocating positive punishment, or even mentioned it - that was Julie as she didn't like what Tillydyes had to say. So much better if we can have have an objective discussion isn't it

Now I've learned what negative punishment is, I've also learned that this part of my training tool bag, I just didn't know what it was called. It will be interesting to hear the feedback from Oberon's club. I'm second guessing that as we lost the theory of pack dominance, we also lost the training methods that purported to capitalise on those (false) beliefs.

What is really interesting in Pippa's article is there may well be a case for not using negative punishment at all, although I must admit I'm kind of with Tillydyes and Oberon here and that in the real world, where we don't have an infinite amount of time (to cite just one reason) it's useful as a short cut? Or perhaps it is a good tool irrespective of some opinion and we shouldn't be too ready to abandon it.

I have no doubt as we get better in understanding how dogs 'think' we will get even better at manipulating, shaping, training, BAT, reinforcing or whatever we're calling it these days - their innate behaviour.

I predict our current thinking will be superseded by our greater understanding and healthy debate on making that progress is a Good Thing.

Of course, there's behavioural technique but to add to the debate, that's just one of the variables. We could discuss Field Trial Champions - anyone know of a FtCh that lives in the house? How much does the dogs' environment contribute to the final outcome?

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=gad link=topic=6131.msg80571#msg80571 date=1400798631]
I don't think Tillydyes was advocating positive punishment, or even mentioned it - that was Julie as she didn't like what Tillydyes had to say. So much better if we can have have an objective discussion isn't it
[/quote]

Sorry, really, there is no need to be so defensive (or combative) about this, enough now.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=gad link=topic=6131.msg80571#msg80571 date=1400798631]
Now I've learned what negative punishment is, I've also learned that this part of my training tool bag, I just didn't know what it was called. It will be interesting to hear the feedback from Oberon's club. I'm second guessing that as we lost the theory of pack dominance, we also lost the training methods that purported to capitalise on those (false) beliefs.

What is really interesting in Pippa's article is there may well be a case for not using negative punishment at all, although I must admit I'm kind of with Tillydyes and Oberon here and that in the real world, where we don't have an infinite amount of time (to cite just one reason) it's useful as a short cut? Or perhaps it is a good tool irrespective of some opinion and we shouldn't be too ready to abandon it.
[/quote]

I think that negative punishment is a very important tool. There is nothing harsh about it, despite the awful sounding name Any time we leave the room if bitten by a puppy, turn around to avoid being jumped on, lift the food bowl because our dog is not sitting, put our dog in the car because they have blinked the dummy or withhold a reward for a substandard response - we are using negative punishment (i.e. removal of a desired consequence which has the effect of reducing the behaviour that came before it). At worst, its use is frustrating and annoying to the dog, but it's definitely part of a 'modern' approach to dog training.

The 'old' approaches emphasised positive punishment (jerk on choke chain if dog lagging in heeling) and negative reinforcement (release grip of choke chain when dog catches up and heels properly). 'Modern' approaches emphasise positive reinforcement (give treat to dog when in good heel position, or give treat to dog for being quiet while you eat your breakfast) and negative punishment (dog barking at you while you eat your breakfast so shut the dog in laundry for a half minute time out). All are based on exactly the same theory - operant conditioning. But I think that a dog is generally happier with a 'modern' approach to training and enjoys the experience of learning more. Anyone, dog or human, that is keen to learn will learn more and faster.