NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=gad link=topic=6131.msg80571#msg80571 date=1400798631]
. We could discuss Field Trial Champions - anyone know of a FtCh that lives in the house? How much does the dogs' environment contribute to the final outcome?
[/quote]

I have a FTAW Clumber and a springer competing in open stakes, will that do? Both live in the house and both are in part clicker trained.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

That is broadly true, and in many cases a noise, or word that dogs find aversive is simply so because it has become conditioned to be a predictor of punishment. There is some research however to show that people and other animals have an innate or inborn fear of certain visual or auditory stimuli.

Fear of snakes for example - here is a little summary of an example of the kind of research I’m referring to. I think there are quite a few papers on this kind of topic.

In any case, the salient point is simply that for whatever reason, whether innate or conditioned as a predictor of punishment, the Tsst noise is aversive for some (not all) dogs.

I think perhaps we have drifted a bit from the topic here. I don’t think anyone on this forum is suggesting that we divert dogs away from distractions or try to control them by waving food around.

No-one is denying the vital importance of having a well-trained dog, and being under control of that dog at all times. In fact it is most unlikely that a poorly trained dog would respond to a mild aversive such as a fierce NO, in such a situation

What is needed in situations like this is an effective cue, and there is no doubt that such a cue can be trained by both modern methods (using cheese as a reinforcement if you like) or by traditional methods. - using an aversive or predictor of punishment.

This is where we agree, up to a point

One of the chief drawbacks of positive only training is the time it can take to proof cues in certain high distraction environments. And in my view this can occasionally be to the detriment of both the dog, and his family.

I think it is great the article has provoked some discussion. I think that there has long been a false perception that positive reinforcement trainers are permissive and that their dogs are badly trained. That perception is now changing and positive reinforcement is now filtering through into the gundog community too. Only a few years ago, gundog trainers were saying "There will never be a clicker trained FTCH" then along came Philippa Williams.

I don't see it happening in spaniels for a while yet, but never say never - maybe Ziggy will do it for us

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

There are obviously some strong feelings on this topic. I have removed a small post that did not contribute to the topic in hand, as I have no intention of letting this discussion degenerate into a squabble.

Let's stick to the issues being discussed please

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=heidrun link=topic=6131.msg80621#msg80621 date=1400826863]
[quote author=gad link=topic=6131.msg80571#msg80571 date=1400798631]
. We could discuss Field Trial Champions - anyone know of a FtCh that lives in the house? How much does the dogs' environment contribute to the final outcome?
[/quote]

I have a FTAW Clumber and a springer competing in open stakes, will that do? Both live in the house and both are in part clicker trained.
[/quote]

Good for you (sincerely), I hope I can do the same one day! Most serious field trial people I come across seem to think that to get the coveted FtCh title, it would be almost impossible for a dog that was working and a pet. I don't know enough about competing in field trials to question why - hence asking the question. Any other views on this? Pippa - do you know of any FtCh that are working dogs and family pets?

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

I know of a FT CH Lab who lives in the house and was clicker trained, he has won many trials. He is retired now and still lives in the house with his younger brother who is being trained. However, I am sure he was also taught with some negatives, but gently.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Sadly the way spaniel field trials are run by the KC at the moment there will never be a Clumber spaniel with the title FTCh. Even if I am so lucky as to win several trials with him, Ziggy will never carry the title FTCh.
Pippa is right though in saying that it is extremely hard, maybe even impossible to train a spaniel to that standard without any aversives whatsoever. But I can see how it is possible with retrievers.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

There is a thing called a 'pet corrector' http://tinyurl.com/pmecpyv which hisses like a snake or swan.

I got one in case Tatze was attacked when she was a pup. I don't know if it would have worked, but it gave me confidence.

I have never, ever used it on Tatze.

But. When my friend's lab, Zaba, came to stay he was a terror for counter surfing and 'no' or 'ah ah' made no difference whatever. I didn't want Tatze learning this bad habit so I tried the thing out. I stood by the counter with the spray in my hand on top of the counter where he couldn't see it. Every time he jumped up I let a bast out so that he could hear it but not see it. He shot under the table. It worked within half a day. He never counter surfs at my house now.

I put the thing away after that and have never used it again as I must admit, frightening him was not pleasant - but a means to an end. I don't take it on walks either now that tatze is a big girl and I have more confidence. I never worried about the Cavaliers as I could always pick them up!

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

I've heard a few people say the same thing about spaniels, what is it about the spaniel trial?

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=gad link=topic=6131.msg80793#msg80793 date=1400856703]
I've heard a few people say the same thing about spaniels, what is it about the spaniel trial?
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean?

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=heidrun link=topic=6131.msg80803#msg80803 date=1400858950]
[quote author=gad link=topic=6131.msg80793#msg80793 date=1400856703]
I've heard a few people say the same thing about spaniels, what is it about the spaniel trial?
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean?
[/quote]

I was wondering why you could get a lab to FtCh but with current KC regs it would be almost impossible for a spaniel.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Ziggy is not just any spaniel ! ;D

But I shall leave the intricacies of the explanation to Heidrun

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

I think it's something to do with being a particular breed of spaniel and the way the entry criteria work. I remember Heidrun talking about it once. It's to do with the rules, not a dog's ability. I'm sure she will be along to explain

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=heidrun link=topic=3298.msg35702#msg35702 date=1384527479]
Barbara, Ziggy will never be a FTCh, no matter how many field trials he might win the future. The best he can ever hope for is to be a FTW (field trial winner). This is because of the way the Kennel Club runs field trials. In order to become a FTCh a dog has to win at least two open stakes. This is where it gets a bit complicated but I try to explain it the best I can. In field trials there are novice stakes, open stakes and all aged stakes. Novice stakes for spaniels can be just for English springers or for Cocker spaniels or they can be AV, which means any variety of spaniel breed. So I could enter Ziggy into an AV novice trial no problem. But open stakes are strictly either for English springers or for cockers, there are no AV open stakes. All the field trials for the minority spaniel breeds (Clumbers, Sussex spaniels, Field spaniels, Welsh springer spaniels) are all aged stakes, which means dogs of any level either novice or dogs with field trial awards are allowed to run in the same trial.
So, just to sum up, there are no open stakes for the minority breeds hence no FTCh amongst any of the minority breed spaniels.
[/quote]

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

And btw Ziggy is a Clumber spaniel and therefore one of the minority breeds.

and he's very handsome ;D

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Thanks Julie, I was just about to launch into a long explanation! ;D

Sorry, I led us way off topic! :

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

It was worth it just to look at Ziggy

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

[quote author=editor link=topic=6131.msg80852#msg80852 date=1400863902]

It was worth it just to look at Ziggy
[/quote]

It was! Will you be bringing him to the CLA?

So - a cocker, in practice, that lived in the house, a family pet and working dog could become a FtCh? Previous posts seemed to suggest not?

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Yes, he will be at the CLA.
There is no reason why any dog, cocker, springer or retriever, can not be a pet, a working dog, a FTCh and live in the house. But care needs to be taken when working a trialling spaniel on a normal driven shoot. That can easily ruin a lot of hard work and many months of training. But that is another subject.

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Can I just say that it annoys me slightly that I cannot even read a nice contentious thread like this one, minding my own business, without people waving dogs in front of me that make me want another puppy.

Blooming forums, blooming dogs, blooming husbands (who won't let me )

 

Re: NEW article: Should you say NO to your Labrador

Haha, so inconsiderate! ;D You think you're safe outside the puppy sub forum, but no....