Hi, Sorry this is a long post, thanks for reading. Looking at some feedback/guidance or even thought process on a couple of items. We have signed up for a ‘Basic Dog Manners Course’ (again as previous ones we dropped out after a period for various reasons). This one uses Positive training. We did plenty of research and landed on this one. She is qualified and also does Dog Behaviour (qualified - to a certain level). We have decided that if this does not work then we will continue on our own. This course involved a 1hour at home discussion on what we wanted out of the training, meet Vanilla etc. It was very interesting discussion, as she determined that Vanilla was ‘very hyperactive’. Put it into context; we stood round the kitchen island talking, trainer ignored Vanilla from the moment she entered until towards the end of the hour. Based on that Vanilla would not settle for the first 10min or so. Wanted to sniff the lady and would look at me as if to say ‘she OK, why she not saying hello to me’. Every visitor to our house will say hello to Vanilla once she sits (trained). With some visitors that takes longer, but we have trained out of her jumping up to say hello (this did involve humans too). Because of this, it involved Vanilla walking around, panting to some degree and making huffing/whining noises. I would interact with Vanilla, to get her to move away and to start to settle. After while Vanilla took herself off to her chair to settle. Then moved to a quieter place. I have no issue that Vanilla is ‘hyperactive’, a lot better than what she used to be as yes she does want to say hello to certain people and dogs, but just as easily can leave them alone. It depends on the reaction/noise we get while out walking ie: high pitched/high fuss ‘oh it is a puppy/Labrador’. Very hard to control Vanilla, goes bonkers (but far, far better than she used to be). We are working through this with her and have got a long way with her. I always look to see what I can do to try and make sure she does not go over her threshold. If she does, then I look at bringing it back down as quickly as possible. It was also decided that during training we will be at the end of the large ‘U’ shape and have a small board put up to the left of us. This would make it easier for Vanilla to concentrate. This now brings me to the following questions: I mentioned the ‘Look at that’ Game and how I have/am using it with Vanilla to reduce as per the book. She did not fully agree with this as she said it is a form of ‘flooding’ the dog. She said you are better of when you see the trigger to move/walk somewhere else. Now that is all well and good, but not practical in every situation. I have Vanilla to the point of where she will see the ‘trigger’ and now turn to me prior to me clicking. We still have to work on getting nearer to other dogs, which is hard when people either let their dogs pull towards us or are off leash. So yes in that instance I will move away (if I can), if not get her to focus on me via either a ‘sniffing game’ or ‘tug’ whatever I need to do basically. The following came about while doing a ‘sit’ exercise. I don’t use the word ‘stay’ when I ask Vanilla to sit. This is a contentious subject in our house, anyhow I use a ‘release cue’ (well multiple ones depending on situation/requirement). OH wants to use ‘stay’ and I have no problems with this, as I think Vanilla will be able to differentiate between the two of us. Trainer does not agree in using this on basis that you are controlling the environment for the dog (she used an example of baby’s who laid in a cot, both had a mobile over their head. One was allowed to play while moving around the other had their head held still. It showed that the one not holding the head was happier and freer and the engagement was better). This could/will weaken the bond you have with the dog especially if you are in a situation that there are multiple dogs or a toy that she wants to interact/play with. This was why the trainer does not use it and is against it. Not sure if this is a specific breed thing re: release cue, I would not have thought so (of course on the way home this involved an interesting conversation). Obviously I am learning, but I also don’t want to undo any work that I have done so far with Vanilla by doing certain things or confuse the girl because of this ie: you expected this before now you have changed it. I will add I can be very strong minded on things, but am always willing to learn and if I have done something wrong change (but it has to be for the better). Sure as we progress through the training I will have more questions/thought processes. Thanks for any feedback
My thought here was, unless it's just the way you have written it, the trainer is also very strong minded, but is HE willing to adapt to your/Vanilla's needs and learning styles. Have you hear the expression "It's my way or the highway" ? Are you to join a group or is it one to one?
I've nothing to add but just wanted to say well done for thinking all this through so carefully and wanting to do what is right for Vanilla. I'll be watching this thread with interest for people's views.
Just a few thoughts, my thoughts I hasten to add, not being a dog trainer! I have been to a few trainers now, and luckily they are all brilliant! One of the traits they all share is understanding what I would like from the relationship I have with my dogs and the training. It's a two way thing. Invariably conversations are around "tweaking things" An example recently was me asking one of them whilst on a social walk, if there was anyway she could help on the "don't drop the dummy coming out of water" issue. She is not a dog trainer, but leapt at the opportunity to try and help us out using a slightly different approach. I just love the collaborative approach she has So a couple of things. LAT is not a form flooding, very much the opposite. Flooding is deliberately immersing your dog in stimuli which causes a reactive response. LAT is a counter conditioning from a distance that your dog can accept and not react to the trigger, your aim is to keep your dog well within his comfort zone in order to help modify behavior. A dog over his threshold by flooding would find processing and modifying behaviour very difficult. I don't understand the "sit stay" comment though? Is it the release cue which the trainer has a problem with? A personal bone of contention. I hate labels. If someone was to label my energetic, fit, clever, sociable chocolate labrador "hyper-active" I would box their ears and call them "stupid"...there you go...
I don't really understand your second point. What is it your trainer would like you to do with regards to sit/stay?
I think this might be the way I have written it. What I am trying to say is I will adapt to get an outcome that suits Vanilla first and me second. The way I look at it this is it is a partnership between Vanilla and I, but she comes first. I just need to know it is the best outcome and not one that just suits the trainer (hope that makes sense). The trainer (Female) has her opinions, which I respect (don't necessarily have to agree). So far she will work with us to get a desired outcome. This is a group session of 6 dogs ranging from 12 weeks to Vanilla being 17months.
I think group session are a great opportunity to work with behaviours, rather than "things" meaning, working on calm settle, working around other dogs, recall...working around distractions and not so much on how the trainer likes a recall, sit, stay, down for example.
@Beanwood I have interpreted the LAT as you described it after reading 'controled unleashed'. This is what I have been doing with Vanilla for ages and it is working I have no intention of stoping this, but it started to make we wonder if I was doing it right. I think I am as I know the signs now when we need to move on or do something else. I never interpreted it as flooding. Like your coment re: bone of contention. I absolutely love the way Vanilla is and would not want to change that, just mabe calm her a fraction at times. I am in that camp to, so am ignoring this. @heidrun and @Beanwood regarding the Sit/Stay. It is the fact that I adk Vanilla to Sit and she is not allowed to move until I tell her to. As example leash off then a release cue, or a long sit with me maybe meters away. Her view is Vanilla has no option in the environment and is beholden to me until I say the 'cue'. Now not in a million years would I put her in harms way ie: sit if something was heading her way. I always scour the surroundings. I just dont want to say Sit, then Stay and Stay then nothing to release her. Does not make sense to me. Hopefully this does make sense
Agree that is the main reason for us doing the group session. I want Vanilla to be calm around dogs more than what she currently is, and also understand that not everytime she sees a dog it is play time.
regarding the Sit/Stay. It is the fact that I adk Vanilla to Sit and she is not allowed to move until I tell her to. As example leash off then a release cue, or a long sit with me maybe meters away. Her view is Vanilla has no option in the environment and is beholden to me until I say the 'cue'. Now not in a million years would I put her in harms way ie: sit if something was heading her way. I always scour the surroundings. I just dont want to say Sit, then Stay and Stay then nothing to release her. Does not make sense to me. Hopefully this does make sense[/QUOTE] Yes this makes sense. You are popping Vanilla in a "Sit" cueing sit. Then giving a release cue. . Well that is exactly what I do. Sit means sit until I ask you to do something else. You are not controlling her environment, she is simply waiting for your signal to do something else. I do have a secondary reinforcer, which is a visual cue, hand raised, but that is helpful in the environment I am training in.
I do it the exact same way: sit, and sit means 'sit there until I release you'. Obviously if there were danger the dog can remove him/herself from the situation!!!
Same as me re: secondary reinforcer, my hand as I am building up the distance Just could not understand how I am controlling her environment unless I was missing something
[QUOTE="Karen, post: 318171, Obviously if there were danger the dog can remove him/herself from the situation!!![/QUOTE] That is a given as I would never put Vanilla in danger.
Wow that is a significant age difference between dogs in a class together (puppy to adult) with size, ability and ability to concentrate during rge lesson. No trainers I know would consider such an age mix in a class but keep puppies upto 5 months in a class together, then adolescents and quite often a class for older dogs. On the sit or sit/stay I leave it entirely to the client if you want just sit and a release fine, if you want to use sit/stay fine. Your dog, your cues as long as both you and the dog understand what is wanted.
I am the same this sit. Sit until I say something else. Surely that is the same as your trainer's combined sit/stay? Our class is a very broad mix too. From 12 weeks up to whatever, I think the oldest dog is 11 (though her man brought his new 12 or 13 week old Lab puppy this week - she was adorable!). It seems to work for us. It's great exposure for Coco.
No sorry this is very common here, having mixed classes. This one is one of the better ones when it comes to setup. We have a good distance between us. Getting all the info back from all, I will be continuing with the LAT and my release cue. I appreciate that the trainer is trying to help and has her quals. but I think I also need to do what works for us. I am sure there will be other things that I will pick up during the course.
I so disagree with this. I find 'Look At That' so calming and use it quite a lot with Red. She is very responsive to me saying 'look at that' or 'listen to that'. It really deals with something that could potentially become a problem. It is one of the most useful 'tools' I have learnt to apply when out and about and I am sure her excellent loose lead walking skills are partially the result of using LAT.
After @Beanwood I didn't read much more as Beanwood said just what I was going to say. That's not how I understand flooding and I don't understand the second point at all Here's an example of flooding, as I thought it to be. I homed a kitten to the Vet around the corner. Patsy was nervous of sitting and cuddling on the husband's lap. He picked her up, held her on his lap, petted and stroked and cuddled for 20 minutes (TV on) till she gave up or calmed down or accepted him, whichever in her and his mind it was. I think another word for flooding can be "overwhelming" or "force constant experience." Not what I do at all, btw, my tactic is to pick them up and make sure they know they are free to leave anytime they want, in this situation. I don't force them to stay with me.
