Hi I'm new but I have a burning question that appears to fit in really well here. I have a 8 month old Labrador. she's my first dog. I have taken her to a gundog trainer listed on the gundogclub website. It was a very interesting and useful lesson. It was a fairly traditional technique with verbal, lead based punishment and a nudge when they do it wrong and lots of positive when they do it right. In one one-on-one lesson and lots of practice, we've gone from a dog that needed to pull constantly to one that can be walked keeping the lead in between your thumb and forefinger. she's not quite shoulders behind legs nose in front level of accuracy but the difference is quite amazing. that awful panting noise has gone which was horrible to hear and really couldn't have been good for her. a life time of pulling vs a few sharp pulls on the slip lead seems acceptable to me in terms of what will have the least effect on the dog long term. Whilst lead training has been my bete noir, sit stays and recalls are coming on a treat. With treats. my dog is your classic food obsessed labrador so food is a good way to get her to focus. The trainer said "your dog should do things because they want to please you, not for food" so the liver cake never came out of my pocket. but recalls particularly need the gambling effect. if I'm doing them with the trainer regularly I can't not treat at all or else the dog's going to realise that if the trainer's there there's no reward. Also the proofing around dogs and other people is a slow piece of work and I'm worried about what technique i'm going to be expected to use instead. I am not saying this to be a creep but i find total recall the most easy to understand and helpful thing i've read with the dog so i dont want to use punishment instead, i've spent ages on it . it's definitely not finished but it's a work in progress. i don't want to keep moving trainers nor do i want to disagree with them. the trainer isn't the type who's going to brook a dog training method argument from a novice like me and i am not great at arguing with people - i can do it very well but it leaves me feeling very upset afterwards. I don't know what i want people to tell me. Maybe I should give up with gundog training as she's first and foremost a pet, but it is something i know the two of us would enjoy. maybe i should accept the more traditional system as the lead training wasn't happening with treating and we'd pretty much given up. Now, it's lovely to walk her, today we practised around horses which only took three goes to walk up to without pulling. that to me is amazing. are there gundog trainers in the south west of england who teach at least mostly positively and don't see rewarding dogs with food as wrong? there do seem to be a few of us in a similar situation! thanks
Re: New with reward questions Hi there, and welcome to the forum We were talking about this tricky subject earlier today. We don't actually need to use treats, to train a dog, it is possible to moderate an animal's behaviour through aversives and/or low value rewards like praise. You can modify a dog's behaviour using good consequences or bad, or a combination of both. But, if you use weak good consequences, you tend to have to use more bad consequences. Most traditional gundog trainers do use rewards, but in early training they tend to use low value rewards such as praise and petting. Later on in advanced training they use high value rewards, including opportunities to hunt and retrieve. But to begin with, they use low value rewards that are fairly weak in terms of good consequences, and this means that they also have to use aversives. I actually don't have a problem with this, in principle, provided the use of corrections does not become abuse. In practice, it is difficult to describe how to use aversives as the amount of force/intimidation that can be used without demoralising the dog depends on each individual dog. So training with aversives is better demonstrated by an experienced trainer than explained in a book or article. If you are being taught by a fair and moderate traditional trainer, he or she will be able to show you how to use aversives appropriately, and in heelwork, as you have discovered, for a dog that has got into bad habits, they can be a faster route to success than through purely positive methods. I am so pleased that you are getting on with Total Recall. With recall, there are big disadvantages to using aversives, few people have the ability to use them effectively in a recall situation, so I strongly believe that positive only is really the best approach. Deciding whether or not you are comfortable with a traditional gundog trainer is such a personal decision, but there are very few gundog trainers using positive only techniques and many if not most, do not allow food in their classes. I think it is probably pointless to get involved in conflict with a trainer over this. If you can possibly find a way to use the classes to further your knowledge and learn from the trainer, whilst continuing to use rewards at home, this should not cause you or your dog any problems. It would be a shame to give up! I really do believe that gundog training is the perfect occupation for gundogs. I have seen so many pet dogs transformed by it. And it builds a wonderful bond between dog and owner. Finding a bridge between the two worlds of pet dog training and gundog training is not always easy but it is worth the effort, and things are improving steadily Let us know if you have more questions/concerns Pippa
Re: New with reward questions Hi HD. I'm pretty new to this forum too. You'll find everyone on here interesting and helpful! My post, "Guinness' first one to one gundog training session" asks pretty much the same question you do. I for one don't see the point in having a dog as clever as Guinness and taking him to some random church hall for some "lessons". I, like you, love the idea of gundog training whilst keeping Guinness as a family pet. I have had one lesson with a traditional gundog trainer who doesnt use/recommend the use of treats. However, Guinness works much harder and learns a lot more in a training session where food AND praise are used as rewards. Following advice from here, I've decided to use treats as a reward BUT only when Guinness has done something 100% right. Judging by today's lesson, he will come on leaps and bounds. I'm just concerned about trying to do it all without treats when I meet up with the trainer!!! :-[ At the end of the day, if your dog wants to please for a tit bit and responds well/works for it.....DO IT! I'm just going to make sure he only gets his piece of chicken IF he does exactly what I ask of him. If he deviates, we go back with no treat and start again. Good luck Tom
Re: New with reward questions [quote author=hd link=topic=1386.msg9279#msg9279 date=1365524791] are there gundog trainers in the south west of england who teach at least mostly positively and don't see rewarding dogs with food as wrong? [/quote] Hi. Do you not see rewarding dogs with verbal praise as mostly positive then?
Re: New with reward questions Tj, I see giving verbal praise to Guinness as 100% positive. The trouble I'm having is that Guinness does not see "praise only", as something he should work hard and pay attention for. If he knows he is working for something he can get his teeth round when he gets it right, I don't see the problem. People work hard in life for different reasons, surely dogs are not that dissimilar. Tom
Re: New with reward questions It doesn't normally take too long to 'fade' the frequent use of treats. Gradually start increasing the gaps between rewards, or asking the dog to do more before he gets any reward. This also helps to consolidate the behaviour as the dog will try harder if he is not sure whether or not a reward will be forthcoming. Pippa
Re: New with reward questions [quote author=Guinnesstheblacklab link=topic=1386.msg9284#msg9284 date=1365537909] People work hard in life for different reasons, surely dogs are not that dissimilar. Tom [/quote] Very true, Tom. It is the dog who decides what is rewarding and what isn't. My cocker does not like being touched during training, verbal praise also leaves him cold. Only food and the chance to hunt are truly rewarding to him.
Re: New with reward questions Don't disagree....just seeking clarity. Having had a lab around all my life I know that some work for things others won't! My current one does anything for a tennis ball!
Re: New with reward questions I think sometimes people coming from pet dog classes can be quite taken aback by lead checks etc that most gundog trainers use, and get the impression that the whole thing is a bit, negative. On the other hand, many of them get results they have longed for , especially with heelwork Perhaps it is worth saying, for those that have not yet had a go at gundog training, that on the whole gundog trainers today are quite positive in approach. Even if they are not 'positive only' and even though many don't like using food Pippa
Re: New with reward questions Thanks all. I think that here we're trying to treat pet dogs in the same way as kennelled dogs or dogs from 10 or so dog homes where a pat on the head or a rub of the chest is fantastic because the dogs are vying for attention and do want to work to get it. In my home there's one dog and four people, two of whom are young kids who adore the dog to pieces. This adoration gets her more head scutches, tummy tickles and attention than she knows what to do with. For free, no effort required. I think gundog trainers do need to accommodate this difference into their training methods. The idea that that dog is then going to feel motivated in training by a head rub is asking a hell of a lot.
Re: New with reward questions Thats a good point HD. And my dog really isn't impressed generally with any head patting unless she is lying down in which case it seems to be acceptable LOL. Jacqui (and Lilly)
Re: New with reward questions Yeah, I think that's a really good observation too. At my obedience class our instructor is trying to get us (the class) to use a toy as a reward, not food. While I think it's great to encourage people to think creatively about what their dog might find rewarding, I know that treats are No. 1 for Obi, with daylight second. Having said that, he does like to run, so we have little running bursts away from the class as rewards to vary things a bit. Just gotta find what gets your dog's eyes to light up.
Re: New with reward questions interesting....my two are very food motivated normally, but brodick doesnt give a hoot about anything except hunting when he is in the countryside in hunt mode...except recently discovered he likes running with me a lot, running works for him as well... he will unfocus from prey and run with me now if I tell him to Run, fingers crossed this is going to help me distract him... If he is not in hunt mode he loves an exaggerated fuss as a reward too...Cuillin is food all the way, and a game of chasy as reward close second...
Re: New with reward questions Welcome from me too . Please try and keep up the gundog training , they really do get such a lot out of it and the mental stimulation is great too My 21 month old Sam is a working bred boy but he is a pet , however he adores retrieving and so I quickly realised that this had to be a big part of his life . He is also very food orientated , would sell his soul for a sausage I`m sure and so for him, its food rewards every time , seems to do the trick
Re: New with reward questions I just wonder whether gundog training isn't a little "one method fits all". With human beings, learning what type of learners children are and teaching them in ways proven to light their particular fire brings a child on much faster than the old school one size fits all. My children are visual learners, so to memorise something they really need to see it. other people are auditory or kinaesthetic (learn by doing) and i expect teachers to know this and to tap into it. my dog is motivated by food. if she lived in a kennel it might be different for her but to not learn about the dog you're trying to teach and not to understand what gets under its skin and brings out the best in them is missing a huge trick. How many gundog trainers in the real world would cope with the sight of a clicker? my dog loves clickers and food and to ignore them as the teaching tools that they are is blinkered. I am not saying that there is not room for more dissuasive methods as well as persuasive but to ignore most persuasive techniques without learning whether they are strong motivator feels very outmoded to me. I suspect that gundog trainers feel that if a handler's dog won't climb Everest for a chest rub then the bond with your dog is not strong enough. HD has a habit of parading with things she's retrieved and i suspect the crunch of how she's taught to bring things to hand will show whether i'm prepared to accept the punishments i see ahead of us. this refusal to bring to hand is caused by my children and the pet home she's in. in other words, it's our fault not hers and if the punishment is onerous I'm not 120% sure I'm going to allow her to cope.
Re: New with reward questions I don't think you need to worry on this count. Most traditional gundog trainers will never punish a dog that is carrying anything in its mouth. Punishment during the retrieve is completely taboo, in the UK at least. British gundogs are expected to retrieve naturally and a poor delivery is usually modified by simple strategies such as using a retrieving lane, to encourage the dog to come in straight, and occasionally by teaching a simple 'hold'. You will find corrections are used less as the dog's obedience advances because the rewards used (hunting and retrieving) are so powerful. It tends to be in early training that you will find traditional trainers using more punishment than pet dog trainers. They use corrections to establish basic obedience quickly, and to some extent in proofing, especially with steadiness to game. I think the reasons that many gundog trainers have ignored these techniques is actually quite complex. Probably the main reason is that they already have a good system of getting basic obedience established, and are happy with it. Where I think gundog trainers are really missing out is in the application of the clicker for delivery problems. But interest in these techniques is gradually growing. Pippa
Re: New with reward questions My recent gun dog trainer experience included a chat about using the clicker to develop the stop command using a tennis ball as the treat which was interesting
Re: New with reward questions that i don't need to worry about that is cracking news, it really is and makes me feel that basic obedience is the 'hump' we need to get over until we do more fun things we'll both enjoy. She hasn't patted me on the knee and said "I know take me to gundog training" so i just don't like the thought of inflicting things on her when i've only been wanting to find her a job to do to keep her mind occupied. maybe i am too wet. The trainer seemed to think it was me that was useless and the dog was actually quite good. To me that's good news as it's more about teaching me than her. Poor wee lamb's saddled with me I still like to think she could have done worse. Thanks everyone
Re: New with reward questions [quote author=hd link=topic=1386.msg9310#msg9310 date=1365596546] I just wonder whether gundog training isn't a little "one method fits all". [/quote] No dog training, no matter what discipline, obedience, agility or gundog training is one method fits all. Every dog is different and what works for one dog wont necessarily work for the next dog and so on. The important thing is finding what works for each individual dog. For example, I find that alot of german shepherds arent food orientated but work well for good voice modulation....changing the pitch of your voice to praise...as do alot of dogs. the important thing is to find what works for your dog and utilise this.
Re: New with reward questions Hi, I only wish Charlie was food orientated it would make training and life a lot simpler. Hattie would follow me to the ends of the earth for a crumb ;D The Gundog Trainer I have been going to is Annie Buckley and she doesn't mind me using treats (Cheese) if it helps, sometimes it does, sometimes.... Whatever works for Charlie is the way I work now. I feel there is a one type fits all attitude also. I am a pure novice though!! Helen x
