Re: Non Cued Look at Me [quote author=charlie link=topic=10015.msg146892#msg146892 date=1425286458] I won't give up on the technique or the 'walk' x [/quote] No, don't give up but also don't be disheartened if he goes off on a hunting expedition, because that's what hunting bred dogs do if they catch the scent or the sight of game or if they come across some ground where they have had a previous enjoyable hunting experience or just for the sheer fun of it.
Re: Non Cued Look at Me That's a good point Heidrun, and Helen I think that you are doing fantastically well - but don't get downhearted if/when Charlie does a quick whoosh into the bushes for a spot of hunting!!
Re: Non Cued Look at Me Mmmmm. I was imagining Brodick in that area while watching the video, (which was great). Brods is a Spaniel in Labrador Clothing. He would have put his big nose down and disappeared into that undergrowth like a shot with his tail doing that hunting-hunting-hunting fast short wag...its really interesting having one dog obsessed with hunting and one dog obsessed with retrieving, Cuilli is great at the uncued look at me's on a walk, as she lives in hope of a Retrieve. Brods is great at them on a beach 'walk', or in an open area with not much smell....take him to bushes and smells and he barely knows his name...we are working on this....
Re: Non Cued Look at Me Even for my Charlie, the first time the trainer told me to let Charlie off his lead, in the countryside stuffed full of pheasants and other wildlife, and with a load of other dogs running round, and told me that I could do or say nothing apart from click and treat for attention, I ended up practically in tears (I believe there is a written record of this wailing and crying on the mod's board from last August... ;D ;D ;D), having barely seen my dog for most of the afternoon, and honestly wanted to collect my dog (if I could even get hold of him) and go home (I was on a week's clicker camp). I had no confidence it would work whatsoever...but it did...eventually. But, no, I can't see it working as a first step for a dog disengaged and with a history of hunting either...
Re: Non Cued Look at Me I've been thinking about this and it's interesting how different the natural instinct of a dog can be within a breed and I don't just mean between working line and show line. My two are similar to Brodick and Cuillin. Scott has always naturally checked in with me although maybe not as often or as close as I would like. :. Scout is a nose down see you later dog. His instinct is to find whatever is at the end of the scent and bring it back no matter how long it takes and they are both from the same litter. I was wondering Julie when you've been training with working line labs do you notice a difference between their natural instinct and Charlie's. Do you think there are some things Charlie picks up easier, for example overriding his instinct to hunt rather than checking in, or harder, for example retrieving a dummy, because he hasn't been bred for his natural instinct ? Seriously Helen when you think how strong the natural instinct to hunt in Charlie is that you are trying to control what you have achieved is brilliant. I for one take my hat off to you. I know you don't think you've achieved as much as you have but not that long ago he'd have been off like the wind every time and you've done it all yourself ok with a bit of help from David. . Be proud of what Charlie can now do even if sometimes he has a blip. ;D
Re: Non Cued Look at Me It's a bit difficult to say, I think because I don't actually train alongside many working labradors, just one or two. I mainly train alongside HPRs and spaniels. Plus, in the advanced class, everyone is a better trainer than I am, I'm clearly the least experienced. Charlie is more distracted than any of the working dogs I train with in the advanced class, even when they are hunting (he was in his pet dog environment in the video, he is not the same in a field full of spaniel flushed pheasants) - he is more distracted by his environment than they are, but wildlife doesn't make things much worse for us (a bit, but not a lot). So people, dogs, particularly dogs working, are all very difficult. This is the case in the advanced class, but not really in beginners. I think it's very difficult to untangle the end result into the nature of the dog and the skills of the trainer. His troubles returning from a retrieve are no worse than lots of working dogs who are having trouble. Some are possessive (Charlie is distracted, I think, not possessive), some barely interested at all. I'd say it seems more common for working dogs, where they are having problems, not to be all that interested rather than be so interested they want to hang onto the dummy though. And I suspect a better trainer wouldn't have had so much trouble with Charlie's return as I have. Although it's possible that the early techniques (such as walking away) are more suited to working dogs, and a different set of techniques would have nipped the problem in the bud earlier.
Re: Non Cued Look at Me Very interesting thread, Charlie you are doing so well! I find even between two labradors with similar breeding...(albeit one is an older rescue ) ) the non cued look at me is very different. Casper enjoys hunting...so in our own fields and woodlands he is a nightmare...nose in the air and gone! : Benson however, excels here at the non cued look at me, almost to the point of being rather underfoot. On the common, with other dogs, Casper is glued to my side, uninterested generally speaking in other dogs,(unless the other dog is on a lead/Casper on lead. or a working collie..) Bensons non cued look at me...is far less frequent so I have be more vigilant, we tend to manage his off lead times more carefully, not too much "free wheeling" as we call it. Sometimes I really wish I could find a happy medium.... : We occasionally walk with 2 working labs,(male entire) they are lovely, but very much under the owners control, they don't range far and always it seems in a straight line, unless he sends them left or right for a dummy. Whereas the spaniels I see, give me a headache....they are always too-ing and fro-ing in front of me. Their owner is a gundog trainer, and she keeps them very close to her. Fascinating to watch the different behaviours of gundog breeds.
Re: Non Cued Look at Me It is interesting - and Helen and Charlie started it all! Its also interesting for me to speculate (and vow never to do some things again!) how much difference their puppyhood experience has made to this....both of mine are from working lines. Cuilli was first, and my first dog, so I spent all our walks from day one interacting with her, playing with her, etc etc - she didnt seem to want to free run much, doesnt now either, she wanted to play with me all the time and interact and have balls thrown etc etc. Maybe that accounts for much of her constant checking in now. I hadn't found this site then, I just did it because it was fun. Brods, although he had lots of solo walks as a pup, didn't get quite this level of interaction from me when they had their joint walks, and because Cuilli had been so easy to manage I was too relaxed about free running with him, particularly once he started to show his strong hunting drive - inexperience on my side, and I thought it was nice that he hunted rabbits in the gorse bushes as a wee five month old tot because he loved it, and he never went far away....oh how i have since kicked myself for letting him free hunt at an early age!! I think Brods would have been an avid hunter regardless, but harnessing and managing that at an early age would have made a big difference...I would instill the checking in habit from day one now with pups, and with working line dogs would have a very different approach to the one I had with puppy Brods...don't get me wrong he is a really really good boy in most situations in life, he is a joy to have around, so calm, attentive, obedient, and sweet, but he is a blooming spaniel esque hunting machine out in the wilds...
Re: Non Cued Look at Me I'm interested to see how my two develop, having been brought up the same way, at the same time. I'm sure adolescence will play a big part in changing things, especially with Shadow, but at the moment (just under 7 months), these two working-line pups do check in very frequently (due to lots of games and treats), but Shadow certainly does it a lot more, and doesn't wander as far as Willow - not that she goes far, but he stays probably no more than 10-15 feet from me, max, even when I've been taking him on walks with Alfie recently, who will regularly go out of sight. Which makes me think, as much as nurture obviously plays a big part, nature is also in there and you have to compete with the dog's individual desires, which, even when they come from the same litter, can be very different.
Re: Non Cued Look at Me [quote author=debsie link=topic=10015.msg147121#msg147121 date=1425395850] but he is a blooming spaniel esque hunting machine out in the wilds... [/quote] Welcome to my world. Only difference is I have got four of the little darlings. : ;D
Re: Non Cued Look at Me I think the way to go with a hunt driven dog on a walk is to really engage with the dog and give it lots of opportunities to earn rewards and not just wait for the dog to offer a 'look at a me' every so often. So lots of retrieving, a bit of hunting, some heel work, some sit and stays. And then back on the lead for a little rest.
Re: Non Cued Look at Me That must be right - but even with a not hunt driven dog, exactly that is still necessary around lots of distractions. I can't put even my show bred lab around high levels of distractions (his high distraction is not really wildlife, it's other things though) without my games, fetch, whipit...I have to engage with him.
Re: Non Cued Look at Me I think this is all well and good if you have an engaged dog that loves to retrieve but when you don't a 'look at me' from Charlie in areas of high distractions is something we consider massive as we only have areas of high distractions to walk in . We do as Heidrun suggests with sits, stays, heel work etc. a run and back on lead, walk for a bit and maybe off lead again with food rewards, clicker 'look at me'. The last 3 days David has used the clicker (he has been trained ;D), he has had great results walking down the track on lead past the lambing sheds and open fields either side with lots of 'look at me' when he used to have his nose firmly attached to the ground or scanning the horizon : (Charlie not David ;D) I would like to think this shows a greater level of success as he surely values us/chicken as he has no interest in anything else, so really what's the difference, a check in is a check in no matter what's at the end of it isn't it? :-\ xx
Re: Non Cued Look at Me It sounds good to me Helen. I think whatever works for you, David and Charlie is the main thing.
Re: Non Cued Look at Me Obviously all dogs are different and value different things. I think any training needs to be able to be adapted to suit the dog. You can read all the training books you want but your dog can't so the challenge is to adapt it to work for your dog. I think you and David have found what suits Charlie in this situation Helen and you should keep at it because he's doing a very good impression of a 'real' dog.
Re: Non Cued Look at Me Thanks Karen I appreciate it x Thanks Jen, you are absolutely right one size doesn't fit all and Charlie's a dog not a remote controlled toy x
