Hi Folks, I tried this in one of the sticky threads and got some great advice but thought it was worthy of a post of it's own. What is the guidance on taking a pup out into the big bag world for the purposes of socialisation? Obviously he/she must be kept off the ground but how do you manage pee/poo time if we're outside for a few hours? Will I have enough on my hands for the first few weeks anyway so just stick to the house/garden? Pippa's video in the sticky thread shows an 8 week old pup out in a field. Looks like great training but seems like a risk to me. Keen to know people's thoughts!
Generally if a pup is being carried they are unlikely to pee or poo on you - no guarantees though . Advice I've seen and give to clients is to have some puppy pads with you so you can pop pup on them on the ground if necessary. I wouldn't put a pup on the ground outside of the garden unless you know that there is no risk from unvaccinated dogs until the vet has given the ok after vaccinations have been completed. Going to visit another vaccinated dog and playing in the garden would generally be regarded as being low risk - the health risk being offset by the play and interaction with an older dog, I would stress that all interaction with other dogs must be positive and appropriate - not all dogs like or tolerate puppies. If you know someone who has a field where access to dogs is limited to vaccinated dogs go ahead and practice in their field but get out and about with pup as much as possible so he/she gets used to a range of noises and sights etc. police sirens, fire engines, ambulances, trains/train stations, buses, supermarkets, lorry airbrakes, people in uniform, people on bikes etc etc. The socialisation visits don't have to be long, in fact it can be better if they are kept short so pup doesn't become 'overloaded'. I have video of my girl at 7 weeks of age out in the field with her siblings with her breeder and her children running around investigating and playing but also staying close and responding to a whistle.
I don’t usually carry them out for long - 20 minutes or so twice a day. But, if I do, I take a puppy pad just in case.
We were really stressed about thus. Our pup was nearly 10kgs at 10 wks. You can't really carry a 10kg pup for very long (aside from me being pretty tiny, he doesnt really like it!) And to keep him off the ground until 13wks old (one week after vax) is just not reasonable for me. I had him at the vet last week at 10wks old (eye inflammation) and he said the first vax at 8wks protects the puppy enough. You have to balance and be reasonable. Don't take him somewhere that has a lot of rabbit poop that we can't prevent him eating, or lots of other dog poop. But walk him on the sidewalks and in public. He likened it to this - you would never go on a pre-planned holiday to Africa without a malaria vaccination. However, if your friend was in Africa and had an emergency and you had to fly over immediately to help, you would not say you can't go because you haven't had a malaria vaccination, would you? Think of your puppy getting out and about as the second situation. We are being very careful but still taking him out for a 5 minute walk on the sidewalks once a day now.
It does depend on the prevalence of Parvovirus in your area. Personally I wouldn’t do this with my pup - I carried Tatze until 13 weeks. Our Guide Dog pups are strictly not allowed down anywhere other dogs (apart from Guide Dogs and pups and known, fully vaccinated pets) have been until 17 weeks. Us puppy raisers have to be strong enough to carry them until then. Keir was a monster lol! This is him at 12 weeks
If a pup is too heavy to carry, then you could drive the car to a supermarket car park, or children's play area and let the pup look through the opened window. Mine was in a crate, so I had the back of the car up and the pup can watch the world go by.
I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick, as that’s not necessarily true at all. As it turns out, it may be true if your puppy is on the weaker side but perversely, it almost certainly wouldn’t hold true for more robust puppies. This post, which links to the information from WSAVA, gives more detail: https://thelabradorforum.com/threads/late-with-vacs.23118/#post-353884
The pup is usually protected up to 12 weeks by antibodies from the Mother. However, nothing in life is guaranteed! Still wouldn't take my pup out until second vaccination from vet and that is usually ten days after that. Except that I DID!!! Vet said it was ok then admitted he had made a mistake.
So I had my pup at a different vet today, for his 12 week vaccinations. He was even more horrified than the first vet ,that we had been told not to let puppy on the ground. He said it is absolute nonsense, the kinds of things that the internet spreads (he is quite an older man). He told me that in 45 years of being a vet in our area he has not seen a single case of parvovirus. About 3 years ago there was an "outbreak" in a city 300km away, and two puppies were affected. Both were infected from the same source, and that was from the puppy farm they had been purchased from, in another country. That is the only parvo he has ever been aware of in our area. Other diseases that we vaccinate for are also not common - vaccinations are so highly mandatory here (must prove you are up to date once per year to pay your dog taxes, non vaccinations are fined heavily) that there is a large element of herd immunity that protects them as well. Of course, visiting dogs can be a problem but it's just so rare. He said the biggest threats to young puppies out an about at this time of year is that they are usually not yet trained to not eat EVERYTHING and with things like wild daffodils and tulips, they run up and start munching at them before they can be stopped. Ticks are also a bigger risk at this age than any viruses - first tick treatments here are not allowed until 12 weeks and we do live in a very high tick area. So while we have been careful, I think there is an element that depends on where you live, and how risk-averse you are. I am a cautious person but yet strive for balance between reasonable risk and overly cautious, so I suppose there is an element of personality as well. Anyway, I don't think I got the wrong end of the stick, just a different environment
Gosh, that's interesting! I was definitely advised by my local vets to avoid putting Cassie on the ground in areas where it was possible unvaccinated dogs had been until one week post her final vaccination. It was ok for to mix with dogs who were known to be covered. Interesting to read about dog taxes etc, what state are you in?
Kobe said - He’s wrong. The reason Guide Dogs now have their vaccination regime (which involves three vaccinations at 6, 12 and 16 weeks with no paws on areas possible non-vaccinated dogs have been until 17 weeks) is because they lost several pups to parvo. .
I should add i am pretty bad with typos. If he was a vet for 45 years he'd be pretty old, lol! i meant 25 years
I trust the vet. Very sorry, no offense is meant. But we do not even have a 16 week vaccination. Nor do we do one at 6 weeks. They are at 8 and 12 weeks and that's it. My pup is done now for a year. I understand Guide Dog puppies have rules and one must follow those to the letter. I am not suggesting you dont. But I dont have GD pup and I dont have a 16 wk jab so obviously tbere is a difference.
With my older dog (lab/st bernard mix) whose now 2.5, we didn't have any restrictions. We got him at 8 weeks old and we didn't know any better. I understand this is a mistake, now. We got another puppy last fall. He was 8 weeks when we got him and he's now almost 7 months. We were not as "liberal" with taking him out in public before he was fully vaccinated, but we also didn't completely restrict him. We don't know many people with dogs, so I couldn't invite people's dogs over to socialize him. I have a couple of friends I invited over whose dogs I knew were vaccinated, but those are the only people I know with a dog. We took him for walks around the neighbourhood and let him meet the other dogs in the neighbourhood. We took him to on a couple of short trips to PetSmart as well. Only when he had his 16-week vaccination (i.e., fully vaccinated) did we start taking him out on hikes, took him to obedience school, let him run around in public etc. Our vet was also fine (and even encouraged) us to do this. Socialization is very key at a young age (especially the first 12 weeks) and not everyone knows people with a lot of dogs. So I say, find an inbetween before they are fully vaccinated. Restrict their time in public to places you're familiar with and don't let them off the leash. That being said, you should also speak to your vet about it. Talk to them about the prevalence of parvo in your region. If it's common, then I would severely restrict the amount of time they spend in public before they are vaccinated. I know a lot of people will disagree with me though.
Here is an excellent article - https://www.thelabradorsite.com/canine-parvovirus/ “We are sometimes lulled into a sense of security as the number of dogs affected with these kinds of diseases falls in Western Countries due to effective vaccination programmes. However, outbreaks of parvovirus still occur in the UK and the USA every year, and many unprotected puppies will die if they come into contact with the virus. They don’t even need to contact dogs carrying the virus, just an area where their waste has been left behind even in trace amounts. So you really can’t be too careful when it comes to protecting your puppy and making sure their vaccinations are up to date. Your vet can advise you on the recommended intervals for vaccination and will vaccinate your Labrador puppy for you, to keep him safe from this horrible disease.” .
I agree with Boogie here, and would always go with the advice from my vet. They are going to be most knowledgeable about the ACTUAL risk in the area that you live. The Guide Dog puppies do have a different vaccination schedule to the one Lilly had as a pup, but having said that, it may have now changed - I know our annual vaccs used to be a single jag, but now is two, one month apart, so the primary vaccination may have changed too. If you have had a puppy affected with Parvo, or know someone who has, your risk taking is going to be severely affected by this information/experience. Vet may not be the best source of advice for all things (Diet maybe? ) but whne vaccinations are concerned I would follow their advice. And just like Doctors, advice from the younger generation may be more up to date than the older ones.
Where do you live that your vet has never seen a case of parvo, @Kobe? I would probably confirm this by calling other vet practices, and if they give you the all clear then I guess you can relax. It's rampant where I live, and the disease can live in the ground for 7 years so puppy owners have to be very careful.
It has - the WSAVA recommendations I posted are the most up to date. To me, it’s simple. You can socialise (and, more importantly, habitualise) your puppy from your arms for those first few weeks. Worst case scenario, your arms get sore. Worst case scenario of putting your puppy on the ground before they are properly vaccinated is that your puppy dies. The risks may be small, but the different outcome of the two worst case scenarios is rather extreme and enough for me to choose sore arms - AND a well socialised and habitualised puppy - every time.
