Sorry this is a long, self-pitying post! Indie ran off after pheasants today. I have been walking her trailing a long line for a year now to prevent this, and I even changed dog walker so she would be on lead for her lunchtime walks to prevent hunting. I was doing some retrieves in our ‘safe’ field, which has the least chance of wildlife in it. But I just threw her dummy a tiny bit too far, out of the reach of the end of the long line. This has never been a problem but I hadn’t realised it was start of pheasant season. She got to it, picked it up, then heard a pheasant call I couldn’t get to her line in time, of course she ignored my ‘stop’ and other commands, and she ran through a hedge, across a road into another field. Luckily the road was quiet and by some miracle by the time I got to the road and blew my recall she came running up the road and I managed to put her on the lead. But she was a screaming mess, shaking, standing on her hind legs desperate to get away from me and to the pheasants. Couldn’t take any treats or respond to me at all. I am scared and upset, and it just made me realise all the little things I am doing with her are kind of pointless because I haven’t worked out how to proof against hunting game. I thought I was making progress with her but I think now it was just because there was less wildlife around over the summer. There seems such a gulf between me training her to heel past other dogs, walking round her full food bowl, messing about teaching ‘middle’ and ‘magic hand’ etc., and the training I have to do to gain a tiny bit of control round pheasants and deer. I have no idea how to do the latter. I know the standard advice is ‘oh if you work on making yourself valuable to your dog with fun games you won’t have a problem’ or somehow that self control round a food bowl or training to respond to a stop whistle when running to another dog will transfer to hunting, but it just doesn’t with us I know I need to get my stop and recall stronger, but I don’t know how to! They both work up to a certain level of distraction but no further, and I don’t know how to get past that. I think I still have a fundamental confusion regarding what ‘proofing’ actually is. Even in the (apparent) absence of pheasants etc., indie responds to her stop or recall whistle 90% of the time, but 10% of the time she ignores it and carries on sniffing or staring off into the distance. So I know I have to fix this, but how do I progress from there? What do I ‘proof’ ? I don’t know what distracts her in that 10% of times, so unsure how to move on from this ‘not quite reliable’ recall and stop. It’s like we’ve hit a brick wall. I have no higher value treats than sardines or roast chicken to offer her, and I don’t have anywhere to train her with zero scent or distractions. I am training her every walk, every day, and frankly I am tired and worried all my efforts are pointless if we can’t progress from 90%! OH thinks I am being a perfectionist but when the 10% failure could involve running over a road, I think I NEED to be a perfectionist. But I am just stuck sorry for the depressing post
I’ve just noticed I have called her Indie throughout this post and not the Pig...Indie was the name she came with when we adopted her and frankly I was scared of her and thought we’d made a mistake with her...and the Pig is the sweet funny well-mannered creature she has turned into. I think unconsciously calling her Indie is reflective of my state of mind about her today!
Have you considered doing gundog training with her? It's hard to proof against this level of distraction when you're just reacting to random events. Most good gundog trainers will give you the opportunity to work around game.
Oh @Lara I wish I had the answer but I don't I can so relate to the need for 100% perfection in this instance, so easy to think ,"what if". But thankfully you are both ok.
I would find a good gun dog trainer you need to work with what you've got not what you'd like. She's a hunty hunty dog you may as well work to the strengths she has. Let her hunt but let it teach her restraint.she's still very young too. I can really relate to what you're saying it's so tough and very frightening
@Lara Your post is sometimes like our life with Charlie even after 6 years. Firstly, you are not alone, even the Labrador, Spaniel etc. owners suffer these problems during the pheasant season which is from now until February but only someone who owns a Pointer or Pointer Cross can fully appreciate these difficulties. You could try going to gundog classes or find a specialist HPR trainer that is tuned to these breeds. Every "trainer" I went to told me Charlie could NEVER be let off lead for the rest of his life, I of course didn't want that and worked to a point that we can manage and within our capabilities and surroundings. I don't believe you will ever stop her hunting, chasing pheasants, deer etc. When we first got Charlie he would run so hard he would return frothing from the mouth and collapse unable to stand up until he recovered, it used to scare the living daylights out of me so I do get it, that's when he went on a long line. I never understood a trained 'hunt' either so didn't try, Charlie's stop whistle is not good at all only in our garden. Like you I do all the little bits of training, 'middle', behind', clicker training to keep him engaged but NOTHING including very high food, toys and his family stops him being more interested in his environment. He was on a long line for 3 years, it was miserable Everyone can say you have to be more interesting, yeah great you try with Charlie, it just doesn't happen. Everything you have trained with Indie is far from pointless so please don't think that. I hope someone with experience can offer you some advice, I am a mere novice so just wanted to offer my support and to say she will improve, Charlie has. xx
Just a thought Lara, have you tried doing some scent work with Indie? Charlie adores these games which are perfect for the Pointer brain and nose, but again no interest on a walk but you might have better luck x
I watched 2 pointers being exercised one afternoon. Never seen the speed and amount of ground covered before . They guy with them said the same hard to recall because they want to hunt . He said it was like having whirlwinds. I love pointers but I would just find them too fast for me. Both my last 2 labs are very hunty but Rory at his fastest couldn't keep up with a pointer. I don't think you're on your own they are hard dogs to come to an understanding with.
Sorry to hijack your thread @Lara but this is Charlie's trail which he covers in a matter of seconds and sometimes twice! His speed is off the scale Amazing to watch though xx
I was going to suggest some work with a gun dog trainer as well, although it can be hard to find someone who uses positive training. I have no experience of Pointers but can understand to some degree as Ripple will totally ignore me if he finds something more interesting. All the work you have done with Indie is there somewhere in her brain and far from pointless, you are building up your relationship with her. You have voiced all the things that I often think about Ripple and his training, I hope that someone can help you to find a solution.
The sight of any of my dogs straight lining it away from me like that would strike terror in my heart, Helen. Lara, it is very difficult for me to offer advice because it involves not allowing your dog free running and I understand that for anyone with a pet dog that is very unpopular. I would work very very hard on Indie's desire to retrieve so that running past a dummy in favour of going hunting doesn't even enter her head. It is something I do with my spaniels. They are all extremely hunt driven but they will retrieve a dummy even right next to a pheasant pen.
I don't have any advice but just wanted to say I'm sorry you didn't have a very good time of it. Sending you and the pig lots of love x
I’m sorry you had such a rotten walk. It must have been very scary. Also sorry that I’ve no useful advice. I think if I was in your position I’d look for a gundog trainer. If you say roughly where you are someone might be able to suggest a trainer. I believe @Stacia has also owned pointers, so she may have some advice.
I'm sure it can be done that you can stop her chasing deer and pheasants; after all, pointers are hunting dogs and so are trained to do just that - you couldn't have one on a hunting field chasing everything that crossed its path (and not everything that's flushed during a shoot is necessarily what you're expecting or done in a controlled manner, as I saw on the training shoot I went to - a deer was flushed unexpectedly, and a collie set off on its heels! ). I've never worked with a dog with that sort of genes, but any gundog trainer worth their salt will have. I don't know where you are in the country, but I'm sure you can find someone in travelling distance. You won't need weekly lessons, just the occasional 1-2-1.
Oh dear...but really although you are upset, don't be. The Pig is just being strongly influenced by her genes. The thing with young dogs and pheasants is confounded by several things. 1. Exposure..2. Training 2. 3. Sausage knows! 1. Exposure: I will use Bramble (20 months old for this..) and the training advice recently given. Bramble is high drive, and because of her age, exposure has been low. This time last year she was interested, but still puppylike with lots of other new sensations taking precedence over her natural hunting instincts. Her drive since then has increased 10 fold, and so have the pheasants. This has become a bit of a problem. So what happens in Bramble's brain right now ....oh look there is one two fields away...must chase because it may be the ONLY one ever! How exciting is this?? Yup too exciting. Now the difficulty with the long line, is that the frustration may increase...now the darned thing is still 2 fields away...BUT she can't get to it. hmmm. 2. Training: This time of year is tough, lots of scent, and the pheasants being let out recently makes it a battle right now which may be impossible to win, well this year anyway! The way to help her manage is by introducing game and waiting for her to calm down. So sitting at a distance from a pheasant pen and working on easy cues. If she can't manage that going to a distance she can, then getting closer. Eventually the goal is to be able to sit close to a busy pheasant pen with your dog comfortable and calm beside you. Then work up to some cold game exercises. The concept of scarcity hopefully is then not competing in her mind when she then sees pheasants, plus training for calm with pheasants means you are taking a step to hopefully less stressful walks when they are around. 3. Sausage knows! Take a flask of coffee (or something stronger...) chocolate, and wait for said dog to return.. NB: Points 1 and 2 advice from my gundog trainer, point 3 taken from err...me!
Sorry you've had a bad day Lara... Try to remember how far you've come, and the great progress you have made with Indie! Most of the time now you can let her off lead, and now you know that extra caution is required at this time of year... As others have said, try to find what it is she really loves, and work on that - probably scent work rather than retrieving, I am guessing, but she obviously retrieves nicely for you.
I had five German Pointers and non of them chased a pheasant more than a few yards. They would hunt. then point the pheasant, put it up, three of them would automatically sit as the bird went away, the other two would chase for a short time. Ideally, you want Indie to see the pheasant and that would be the trigger to return to you for a reward. Can you walk past pheasants with her time after time after time so that they become boring, I know she is over excited by them at the moment, but you may find they lose there attraction the more she sees. Perhaps go to a spaniel gundog trainer who train their dogs to sit to flush.
I know but Charlie needs to run, it's his reward, it's enclosed and he comes straight back for an on lead, walk a bit, off lead. It's part of his routine and it works well for him and us, it's all about management for us It's not as terryfying as you think x
I think whilst people may say "it can be done" this isn't always the case, Indie is a rescue dog and has learned bad habits which are extremely hard to break and those genes I tell you and really unless you have owned any kind of Pointer you truly can't imagine what it's like compared to your Labradors that you have had from fluffy 8 week old pups I fully sympathise with @Lara, it's backbreaking, soul destroying trying to train a Pointer Cross. x
