I know you don't believe it, Helen, and I know that you think we have it easy with our Labradors we've been able to mould from tiny puppies, but I still simply do not accept that it can't be done, however much you believe that. I think, absolutely, it might be that it can't be done within the confines of having a "normal pet dog", which is getting into the territory Heidrun is talking about, but all training can be done and undone, depending on how you want to live with your dog. The limiting factor is always going to be us, not them. Rescue dogs teach us how absolutely adaptable dogs are, so I don't buy it as a reason for the training not being possible. It may be infinitely harder, but it certainly doesn't make it impossible. And I think we do Lara a great disservice by suggesting that it is.
In theory every behaviour is modifiable but that is much easier said than done in reality. A dog that is hard wired to hunt with a certain history of practising that behaviour under its own steam and not as part of a handler/dog team will always be a challange even for an experienced handler.
I am not doing Lara a disservice at all and I have indeed suggested doing some scent work with Indie to harness her desires and also an HPR trainer. My family and I have worked our arses off for Charlie for more years then you have had your dogs so I really don't appreciate your comments, I am angry and hurt. So how do you explain 3 different reputable gundog "trainers" one that appears on TV telling me that Charlie could never be let off lead due to his hunting? They didn't even try to help him or me but had no problem taking my money. What am I as his owner supposed to do to help my dog when I am told that from so called professionals? I think with all due respect Fiona you couldn't possibly know how difficult it is and has been to train Charlie but you are most welcome to come and try if you think you could do a better job. I am sure you will at least agree that having an 8 week old puppy as opposed to a 9 month old rescue that has been in several homes previously and had a terrible start in life is infinitely more trainable. So yes, I do think you have it easy Fiona. @Lara I wish you every success with Indie and I hope you get the help you want. If I have done you a disservice then I apologise to you. Indie is extremely lucky to have you as her owner. xx
Oh gosh I absolutely don’t feel like you’ve done me a disservice Helen! You have all given me some useful advice, I was wrapped up in meetings and now need to go teach a class but will respond properly this evening. Thank you for everyone’s support and advice
Well, I'm sorry that you feel "angry and hurt", but I also feel that your comments were inflammatory and intended to belittle those of us who work out butts off with our own dogs. I may not have a pointer, or a rescue, but I do have dogs with their own very real needs, so telling me I have it easy is remarkably disrespectful. Have you read anything I've written about Willow's phobia? This is a different issue to wanting to hunt, of course, but it is very real and very difficult. Even this week, she is suffering from a crisis of confidence. If someone had told me it's just how she is wired, then I would absolutely consider it a disservice and, at an earlier stage, I might have believed them. So, fine, you're angry and hurt. I'm not hurt but I'm certainly angry. Of course I wouldn't be able to do anything with Charlie, because I don't live with him 24/7, so suggesting I should try is just silly. That doesn't mean that nothing can be done. I am not diminishing what you have achieved which just goes to show that behaviour can be modified, even if it's a slow process. And of course I can't tell you why other people have told you that nothing could be done with him. And, no, I don't agree that an 8 week old puppy is "infinitely more trainable" than a rescue. They are all dogs. Yes, sometimes with bad starts to life, and most of these dogs have to learn to learn, but once they have done that, there is no reason at all that their capacity to learn should be any less than any other dog. If you read what I said I was absolutely clear that it may mean changing the way you view and interact with your dog from being just a "pet dog" to being one that you don't take on recreational walks, and that you are "working" all the time, as many people find they have to do with their spaniels. So yes, I stand by it and always will. The behaviour is modifiable. It may not be easy and I'm not suggesting it is. But it is still possible - you've seen it for yourself.
OK...can we both agree @charlie and at @snowbunny that even labradors raised from fluffy 8 weeks old pups can be challenging..as well as pointer cross labradors? And of course the wide variety of dog owners in between? Pretty please?
Come on guys, let's not fall out over this, please. Yes, certain things can be done, but it is a very, very long haul with not just training but also management. I would always recommend a good gundog trainer for these sort of situations.
Thank you all for your advice and I’m sorry that people fell out a bit. It’s natural given how much thought and care we all put into our dogs that we are sensitive about how we do it and how much effort we have to put in. I think what determines how ‘difficult’ a dog is in this context (ie how hard to train and control) is a combination of how ‘high drive’ the dog is (which I guess will partly be determined by breeding, but spaniels and pointers notorious), what experiences they’ve had in the past (what they have been allowed to get away with!) and how motivated they are by rewards the trainer can offer. And all these things interact. So a high-drive dog with careful management from a puppy is difficult, but possibly not as difficult as one that has also got away with stuff and learnt bad habits (the rescues!). But equally having a high-drive dog from puppyhood might be much more difficult than having an untrained but relatively calm-natured rescue. Another factor seems to be how easily the ‘high-drive’ can be harnessed into something acceptable and under trainer control, like retrieving. A super hunty spaniel that is pretty quick to get dummy-obsessed is probably easier to train using that than one that is only obsessed with hunting and killing stuff and doesn’t transfer that value to other stuff. And it is terribly hard when the high-strung nature gets associated negatively with something, that then I guess could turn into a phobia and interact with all the other stuff. I think all our dogs fall somewhere on this spectrum of interacting factors (whether it be a well-trained but phobic Lab, a hunty but dummy obsessed spaniel, Pointer Pants...) which gives each one its own challenges, determines how many grey hairs we’ve grown since getting our dogs and the length of our Labrador forum posts
Only if you agree to put up with a visit from me and my only unchallenging (read: perfectly normally misbehaved) Labrador monster in a couple of weeks? Oh, and also if Marcus gives me that recipe for the fish fajitas. I sent him a message about it, but he never replied. How rude.
I'm sorry the post went a bit t*t's up too.. Piggy is your dog I know you've had a horrid time today but you adapt learn new things and you will help her not to be her evil twin sister indie. Don't let other peoples experienced put you off it's all about you and the pig. When ive had problems i asked around tried different things different trainers. you might not cure it but you will make it better.I hope you are ok and I lend you some hair dye for the grey hairs we all have them
They might not be, after all you have 90% success and 10% not so much success. If you hadn't done the little things it might be 50/50, who knows? I do believe those things make small differences that build one on the other, I know Cass is a Lab I've had since since a pup but the hand touch and hiding treats in fallen trees etc has really made a difference to our walks. But I fully understand that her Pointer genes bring something different to the mix, I really hope you can find a trainer to help you.
The Pig got chased by two big English pointers a few weeks ago, she normally loves being chased but they were chasing her like she was a rabbit, she ended up running to me to get her Blue Monkey for moral support! They were twice as big as the Pig and really really fast!
I think they're s bit like greyhounds sleepy until they've got their game faces on. Sorry for any bad puns
I'm so sorry you had such a bad walk with the Pig! I do understand how terrifying it is to have a dog that runs away - mine doesn't have hunting instincts but used to run off the second his lead came off - he's obsessed with his environment, people and other dogs. I've also had to use a long line for a really long time, and still use it if we go to new places or anywhere that is open - in case he sees something in the distance and bolts. Last summer a homeless man was living in the woods near our house where we walk most days, I couldn't let Lucky off lead at all because he would just run away to find him. I've had Lucky for nearly three years - and it has got better with time. But I still have to manage him carefully, so I really understand how stressful and exhausting it is! I also think that dogs that run away are a bigger struggle, because they are obsessed with something out there that you can't see or predict, and confident far away from their owner - which is incredibly hard to deal with. I can't give you any advice, other than to continue what you're doing - the stronger your relationship with her the better the chance of her responding to her cues. The other day Lucky started to bolt and I shouted "Lucky!! Chicken!!" and by some miracle he did a U-turn and ran straight back to me. Stupidly I didn't put him on the lead and he just bolted off but I was absolutely amazed that he came back at all! So, for what it's worth, for us it has slowly got better with time, but my heart skips a beat if he puts his nose up in the air!
I see that a solution might be no free running, and I have been trying to implement that - she is now either on lead, or trailing a long line doing a job like retrieving, chasing me for a hand touch and chicken, searching for kibble on the ground by my feet, heeling, running to sit on the bench I hand feed her on. I remember your advice when I first got the Pig and really tried to do it. But there is ‘go sniff’ time, a few times a walk, where I allow her to wander along in my vicinity (within the length of the 10m line) as we walk. Do you think I should remove that too, ie put her on a short lead for that? Regarding getting her more interested in retrieving, I would love to do that and am trying but not sure how. Someone advised me that if her freedom is restricted and retrieving is the only fun and chance to run she gets, she will get keener. But it seems to me like if I keep her on her short lead and only let her off to retrieve, it is more likely that she will abandon the retrieve for an exciting sniff because it’s her only chance at freedom. What methods have you used to increase retrieve drive? Thanks for your advice.
I think the advice from many of you to find a gundog trainer is sensible, they must know their way around a hunty dog! I went for a one to one last year but didn’t really get on with it, the guy’s preference was to use aversives, and although he agreed to be reward based for me, I didn’t really manage to pin him down on specific things and left a bit confused. He seemed just to be testing how steady the Pig was to a dummy, which was very, because she couldn’t care less. Then I tried to book a session with a lady nearby but she could only do week days because she was shooting at the weekends and my momentum petered out. But one with a pheasant pen sounds like it could do us good! I think we wouldn’t mind travelling for a session if it involved some exposure to pheasants...she is much better with rabbits now because she sees them more and she has never caught one...
Don't underestimate, either, what a little maturity can achieve. I am convinced, in spite of my lack of training, that Lilly's deer chasing tendencies have diminished as she has got older (she is 7 now, but still pretty fit and able for a chase when called for)
I noticed this with Rory maturity helps. Some things got less interesting and hr has gained in confidence too.
