Charlie is hugely motivated by play. More so than food. He loves his food, and will do lots for food. But outside, when he is running about, play is much more rewarding to him than food. I didn't realise this at first. Or, rather, I thought fetch was the only game in town. So my rewards were fetch and food. If I couldn't use a ball, food was often a poor substitute. And I was not mean with the treats! I ramped up to amazing, meaty treats! Over the last six months I've been working with a trainer that takes a dim view of my reliance on fetch as a reward. Partly because she thinks Charlie is OCD about fetch and that's not good, it's not balanced behaviour, but also because she thinks it means I lack imagination! ;D ;D ;D So I've been developing more games with Charlie. And discovered I can get him almost as keen on other games as fetch. This didn't happen overnight, I had to build them up, and build them up, until Charlie was super keen. His games are: Tug Whipit Catch Run around Hide and seek Fetch and find its are used very much in moderation. One of the most useful games is whipit and pocket whipit. You use the main whipit game to build up the value and excitement of the toy, and then have a smaller version of that to use as a "pocket reward". Today, my new whipit toys arrived...Charlie won't go to bed, but is sat in the kitchen, guarding the shelf where the toys have been stored. ;D ;D ;D The larger rabbit skin tugs will be on the end of the whipit stick, and the smaller ones used for pocket whipit. image by julieandcharlie, on Flickr And I reckon he'll love the fleece birds, again one for whipit, and one for my pocket. image by julieandcharlie, on Flickr
Re: Play as a reward I can't wait to see what happens next Charlie is going have some fun games. What's the Silver spoon for? One question, Why should a retriever not be OCD about retrieving?
Re: Play as a reward Oh sorry! Provide for scale. It's stainless steel! Although I'll buy Fairy dishwasher tabs again! ;D 8) Well, Charlie is OCD to a silly degree. Or, it seems that way. It creates problems with him wanting to spend time with the retrieve article, and he obsesses about objects. If I send him to an electric fence post as a marker, for example, he'll pull it out of the ground and bring it back. It's sort of tipped over into silly behaviour. I train with a positive trainer, and we use quite a lot of props. Baskets, bowls and cones - before I can use anything, I have to train him not to retrieve the object. I gave up with cones when he actually tried to pick up the brick weighing it down. And this doesn't make for a better working retriever, it's just a bit mad.
Re: Play as a reward Wow, Charlie is handy to have around picking up bricks? Can we borrow him, my OH is building a wall at the moment I think Indie is a bit mad about retrieving too. She is now fetching her food bowl (which is not an easy Stainless steel one). Will actually empty the Washing M/C and deliver to hand, struggles a bit with sheets ??? Always been a bit reluctant to play tuggies with the dogs, but understand that may be a bit of time out from retrieving may help.
Re: Play as a reward Fabulous reward repertoire you've got there Especially the ones that you are an integral part of (like where you're holding and controlling the toy). All the new gear looks terrific!
Re: Play as a reward I agree- starting to use toys / games as a reward a few months ago was one of the most useful things I've done. You list 'catch'- do you play this with a ball or something else? And what happens when Charlie's caught it?
Re: Play as a reward Those pocket size rabbit fur tug toys look good and strong, where did you get those Julie please? I got Charlie's rabbit fur dummy out last week I thought his eyes were going to pop out of his head so this would be easier to pop in pockets, they look better than the tugg e nuff ones. Thanks Looking closely are they the Tug e Nuff ones? :-\
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=Indy link=topic=9494.msg136874#msg136874 date=1421191433] Always been a bit reluctant to play tuggies with the dogs [/quote] There is a good reason not to play tug toys with gundogs, but some good reasons to play it too - it's an excellent reward, and a great way to teach self control, and work on excitement thresholds. For me, it has gone like this: When Charlie did nothing else but fetch, that is all he did. So he did nothing with an object but pick it up and give it to me. This is a very clear way to make sure the dog doesn't do anything with the retrieve that you don't want him to do. When I started playing tug with Charlie, he did start to tug at retrieve objects to. But this was because my "fetch" cue and my "tug" cues weren't strong enough. They were a bit confused in his mind. So I did have to work on my cues. "Round around" is a great example - Charlie would run around with the retrieve. So I put that behaviour on cue and now we play run around. We switch between run around and tug and fetch. The cues "fetch", "run around" and "tug" and so on are clear to Charlie, and he doesn't confuse them. So, it is more efficient not to play tug with a gundog, because then you do not have to worry so much about making sure "fetch" and "tug" are never confused because the dog won't tug. If you train tug, you have to work hard on the cue. For me, it was a question of confidence that I could train the other games and make sure my cues were strong enough. To be honest, it's not perfect (I'll get there though) and as a beginner it was very tempting to never do anything other than fetch. But I thought that was a bit of an opt-out, and I needed to commit to being able to train the different things together.
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=charlie link=topic=9494.msg136901#msg136901 date=1421221932] Looking closely are they the Tug e Nuff ones? :-\ [/quote] Yes, they are. I've never had a problem with them. Have you?
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=Joy link=topic=9494.msg136898#msg136898 date=1421221154] You list 'catch'- do you play this with a ball or something else? And what happens when Charlie's caught it? [/quote] This is generally a ball - he gives us the ball for another catch. We say "ready for catch?" and he goes into a down, wagging his tail. We walk away (great for sit/wait training) then turn, say "catch" and toss him the ball, he jumps up to catch it (we never throw it high enough so he has to jump on his back legs though, because we don't want the joint strain) and he run forward to us to give it to us. Repeat. Beyond exciting. He is a simple dog in many ways. ;D ;D ;D If he ever tires of the game (he did in the early days) two people will play catch without him. This drives him crazy to play. He will also play catch with two or three people with the ball being thrown in a circle and he'll catch the ball and pass it to the next person. This is great for him being calm around moving balls because he has to watch the ball going round other people before it gets to him.
Re: Play as a reward Just had a look at the website looks great...quite a few things on my shopping list now! Happy labs methinks
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9494.msg136907#msg136907 date=1421223399] [quote author=charlie link=topic=9494.msg136901#msg136901 date=1421221932] Looking closely are they the Tug e Nuff ones? :-\ [/quote] Yes, they are. I've never had a problem with them. Have you? [/quote] I haven't bought one yet but have had other toys from them which are great, it just looked so different from the website. Off to buy one to see if it will help Charlie Thanks
Re: Play as a reward The pocket tug toys are a bit smaller than I hoped, but they'll be ok. The ones on the bungie cords are a better size for tug.
Re: Play as a reward This is just reminding me that a friend has a flat coat that has been trained as a Search and Rescue dog. As I understand it, the main qualification for this was a high, very high, play drive. Have you ever thought of trying out that kind of training for Charlie? I think a high play drive is a major requirement for sniffer dogs, too.
Re: Play as a reward Hmmm, there's a lot of good stuff on there! I'm awaiting delivery of a rabbit skin dummy and ball, so will hold off on ordering any more stuff until I see how those are received. Julie, I eventually found my Learning Games book (it was in the car for some unknown reason!) and I like the idea of whippit. What pole do you use? I've seen a lunge whip suggested, but that's rather cumbersome to carry around... do you think a telescopic pole of some description with a string attached would work? I could then use it to double-up as a target stick? Do you have a telescopic pole and if you do, where did you get it? Thanks!
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=Boogie link=topic=9494.msg136947#msg136947 date=1421234326] Do the rabbit skin tugs get slavery and slimy? [/quote] Undoubtedly if my rabbit skin dummies are anything to go by! ;D I don't wash my dummies I just dry them out, they go a bit crispy (eugh) and go back in the dummy bag or bucket to get slimy again another day (eugh again!)
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=Karen link=topic=9494.msg136939#msg136939 date=1421230237] Have you ever thought of trying out that kind of training for Charlie? [/quote] Yes, definitely - I think as he gets older, I might want to restrict his exercise (due to his cruciate repair) so we might give up retrieving altogether (good job we've got other games ) - but right now, we're enjoying the gundog training and don't have time for much more. [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=9494.msg136945#msg136945 date=1421232722] What pole do you use? I've seen a lunge whip suggested, but that's rather cumbersome to carry around... do you think a telescopic pole of some description with a string attached would work? I could then use it to double-up as a target stick? Do you have a telescopic pole and if you do, where did you get it? Thanks! [/quote] I use a lunge whip. But the idea of pocket whipit is the desire for the toy is "portable". You use whipit to build desire, but use the same toy without the whip as a sort of mobile reward. You have to play the main game though. A telescopic pole would work, but it has to be robust. The stick takes a lot of punishment as first - the dog pulls and kills the toy.
Re: Play as a reward Oh man I've ordered dummies and balls today with a view to making a DIY whipit.... Not to worry I can get stocked up easily at the moment....then I'll need a tutorial on whipit from you...although I pave seen a couple of vids and I bet you've posted it somewhere... Bless Charlie sitting watching no one comes to steal his toys! ;D
