Re: Play as a reward I played catch with Molly today - the first time the ball just landed on her head and she looked startled(!) but after that she got the hang of it and enjoyed it. After catching the ball she ran to hand it to me without prompting for a repeat which was great. So thanks for the idea Julie.
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=Dexter link=topic=9494.msg136960#msg136960 date=1421239382] Oh man I've ordered dummies and balls today with a view to making a DIY whipit.... [/quote] I don't use a dummy on the end of a whipit stick, but I used a rabbit skin ball for a while and it worked very well. But it doesn't work so well as a tug toy in your pocket.
Re: Play as a reward Can you tell me how to manage a ball as in a pocket whipit? I guess you play tuggy with the whipit and then put it in your pocket, how to you stop the dog mugging your pocket? I of course, don't play tuggy with the ball but it is a powerful reward, but when I put it back in my pocket, he is dancing around me as he wants it again and them he starts nipping at my pocket. I do attempt to do an alternative behaviour like "heel' then 'off you go', I have tried 'leave it', "gone away" etc, not all at the same time I hasten to add! Help
Re: Play as a reward I don't have that problem - the games starts with "take it/ready/whatever" and ends with "thank you/finish" and he gets a treat for giving me the toy at the end of the game. I think because he knows the game is over with "thank you" he just accepts it. I just did a video of Charlie on the Common playing some games, and he did jump to the tug toy - over excited because it was a new toy - when I got it out of my pocket (I said "ah ah" which I did not realise I said at all anymore, so I'll have to watch that :-[ : ) but doesn't mug my pocket for it. On the first course, back in August, when we started playing games and the dogs didn't realise "thank you" was the end, we drew the toys into our bodies and put our arms around them in a sort of "it's mine now" gesture. Don't know if that helps...
Re: Play as a reward Videos of Charlie's walk today when we were rewarding attention with rabbit skin tug (and food and other toys). Slightly mortified I said "ah ah" but glad I know I still do it sometimes (so can stop!). These probably look like nothing special, but they are a huge improvement for us. Back in August, I was largely irrelevant to Charlie once his lead was off, but now he checks in just about all the time. I stopped him as he made a commitment to run to the other dog (I can tell because of the speed he started to move but not sure you can see it on the vid), and this isn't something just stop whistle training would have got us, it's about me being interesting to him. He wants to know what I want (because it's likely to be something good). I love his change direction whistle! So handy...not entire sure the gundog trainer thought the main use for it would be for to control the area of a run around game, think it's really something to do with hunting stuff, but it works! ;D Stop and recall: https://www.flickr.com/photos/123706979@N04/15657637324/ Run around: https://www.flickr.com/photos/123706979@N04/16092692280/ Still checking in while playing in puddles: https://www.flickr.com/photos/123706979@N04/16093940629/
Re: Play as a reward Wow, that's just awesome. FABULOUS stop whistle! Yes, I really think that harnessing play rewards is the way forward as they have a better chance of competing in very exciting environments. (p.s. I have a pernicious 'ah ah' habit too! I'm also trying to quit ;D ;D ;D )
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=Merla link=topic=9494.msg137096#msg137096 date=1421264873] (p.s. I have a pernicious 'ah ah' habit too! I'm also trying to quit ;D ;D ;D ) [/quote] I thought I had! :-[ :-[ :-[ For the people who know my trainer, don't tell. She is seriously scary.
Re: Play as a reward Good boy Charlie Do you use any food treats now Julie? I'm going to ask, what's wrong with saying "ah, ah"?
Re: Play as a reward Super stop whistle and recall. Loved his muddy feet from the puddles. Was that Wimbledon common?
Re: Play as a reward Great videos, watching him always makes me smile Helen "ah-ah" is a punisher in the purest learning theory terms ie it's something that causes a behaviour to diminish. If, like Julie, you want to use positive reinforcement only it's not something you'd use
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9494.msg136949#msg136949 date=1421234438] I don't wash my dummies I just dry them out, they go a bit crispy (eugh) [/quote] If my daughter catches them in the crispy state, she brushes them with the cat brush! Brings them up a treat all fluffy again ;D ;D ;D [quote author=charlie link=topic=9494.msg137130#msg137130 date=1421269754] I'm going to ask, what's wrong with saying "ah, ah"? [/quote] Well, it depends on what you want it to mean, if anything. Trainers might associate it with an aversive to make a dog stop what it's doing, but I'm not doing that. Or it could be a 'no reward' marker, which is kind of what I use it as. But what I'd like to be doing is shutting up and letting the dog make her own decision (hopefully the right one) without cluttering her world with white noise That's my take on it- other answers will be better ;D ;D (yes, I see Barbara's already is!)
Re: Play as a reward Thanks Barbara, we only use positive reinforcement training too but I find it quite hard not to say "ah, ah or no" but I will try :-[ x
Re: Play as a reward I can't see what is wrong with saying 'ah ah', it just lets the dog know, don't do that. Nothing upsets my Labs, except if I sneeze, the one is perturbed and the other one thinks it is the funniest thing he has seen and rushed up to me.
Re: Play as a reward Well, if you look at the video, Charlie does step back, but I think what he is really respomding to is (not on the video) me drawing the toy into my body, in a form of negative punishment. I do not believe he really responded to my "noise" at all. So I should have just kept it zipped. :-[. Moving the toy away was the most effective thing to do, and probably had an impact on his future behaviour. My trainer, if she catches me saying "ah-ah" (she hasn't for ages, but I wonder whether I act differently on my own, I'll have to keep my video running to check), says "stop doing that! It's not bl**dy working, is it?". In that she thinks it is ineffective nagging. If you keep having to say "ah ah" it's true, it's not working. She thinks NRMs are the work of the devil.... ;D ;D ;D
Re: Play as a reward Blimey your trainer sounds harsh Julie I don't say "ah ah" much at all but if I do I find it does stop the behaviour quickly. I can see it's nagging if it's over used, a bit like telling a child off all the time they eventually won't listen and do what they want anyway :
Re: Play as a reward some positive trainers believe the dog has to make a choice to learn most effectively, so it's better to arrange circumstances so the dog makes the right choice, rather than been directed. My trainer isn't harsh, she is very straightforward and very clear though. She believes in no reward markers for humans, that's for sure! ;D ;D ;D
Re: Play as a reward [quote author=Stacia link=topic=9494.msg137144#msg137144 date=1421271064] I can't see what is wrong with saying 'ah ah', it just lets the dog know, don't do that. Nothing upsets my Labs, except if I sneeze, the one is perturbed and the other one thinks it is the funniest thing he has seen and rushed up to me. [/quote] It's not about how upsetting they find it. If it causes a behaviour to diminish, in technical terms it's a punisher. I'm not in any way suggesting anyone is being mean or, god forbid, cruel to their dogs. I'm just using learning theory to explain why some people choose not to use "ah ah" or "no". Personally I've used both. Julie's trainer would hate me as I am a horrid nag......desperately trying not to be though
Re: Play as a reward It's very, very hard not to say those words though. Come on be honest now, how many of you use "ah ah" or "no" with your dogs? x
Re: Play as a reward Well, obviously I do - by mistake. I do video myself a lot though, and I've not spotted it before. I don't know why I did it today - it is obviously a deeply ingrained habit from 3 gundog trainers I went to before the trainer I go to now. So I can say, unless I make a mistake, I do not use "no" or "ah-ah". I honestly do think it's an unhelpful habit, makes me a nag, and it is something me and my dog would be better off without. If it's associated with intimidating body language or tone of voice, I think it has all the downsides of punishment (generally, as Barbara explained, not suggesting anyone is beating up their dog or anything like that).
