I think you've come a very long way with a rescue dog - and never give up. Play is a primary reinforcer, it's in dog's nature to play (obviously some more than others) and the fact Charlie will play with you indoors and values it, suggests that outside it's an engagement problem - he is more engaged with his environment than with humans (that's not telling you anything you didn't know and haven't been dealing with for ages). Certainly, some dogs are more motivated by play than others, but I think the early learning when dogs learn to play with humans when puppies is a huge part of this carrying on into later life, and you don't know what Charlie's early life was like before he joined your family.
Sorry but I have to disagree with that comment, from everything I've read play is a conditioned reinforcer, not a primary. A primary reinforcer is a reinforcer that an animal is born needing such as food, water, shelter. Secondary, or conditioned, reinforcers are stimuli, objects, or events that become reinforcing based on their association with a primary reinforcer. A dog isn't born wanting to play with a squeaky toy, but when that toy is paired with primary reinforcers such as fun and social interaction, it becomes a conditioned reinforcer. The toy, then, can be used to reinforce behaviors you like, much as you would use a food treat. (from Karen Pryor Clicker training)
Thank you Julie, yes your right it's everything I already know, I just want so much more for Charlie which keeps me trying for him, but as you say I don't know what his early life was and what went on, I'm guessing he was never involved in any play with humans as he didn't even know how to play with a toy or a ball when he came to live with us so the best early months were lost I do wonder if going to gundog lessons on a 1-2-1 basis might give me some pointers to help with this problem and help him learn to retrieve but my mistrust of trainers stops me. It does no harm to keep trying and maybe one day I will strike it lucky and hit on the Charlie motivator! x
Ah I dream of that kind of walk with Charlie alas he is not at all interested in anything and is not content to wander along with us he has to RUN, RUN, RUN with check in's but he does occassionally mooch which is lovely, we do hide and seek ect. I do need to remind myself that he is not 100% Labrador, those blinking Pointer gene's are a pain which does make a difference when I read all the fun stuff you all do with your dogs I would just love a little bit of that to build on oh well!!
Charlie is Charlie, and no doubt those Pointer genes influence his interests not just the Lab genes. He may love to run and run but he also runs back to you and I guess for Charlie running is fun. If he's happy to play at home and happy on his walks and to play hide and seek, if it were me I would be happy. You have worked hard with Charlie so try and relax and enjoy him for what he likes to do. We don't often take balls or the safestix on walks mainly because we end up carrying them after the couple of retrieves Juno will take part in, without other dogs around she loves to have a good sniff around and find as many sticks as possible
Feel free to disagree. Let me know if you ever change your mind. Play is a primary reinforcer. Your quote relates to a toy.
Oh Helen I hear you!! This is my lament as well....I so WISH that I could get Simba engaged on a game while we are out on a walk. It would give him so much more exercise and running around and it would be fun, and it would give him something to be engaged on me with while we were out. But like Charlie, once we are out of the yard Simba has zero interest in a ball for fetch or anything else. I could throw the ball for ages and have filet mignon for a treat but he will completely ignore the ball for the chance to sniff so he never even gets to the stage of getting the treat for the ball. Sigh. This is doubly painful for me as my previous two dogs, both Border Collies, were happiest when they were fetching frisbee X or sticks on a walk and it never crossed their minds to leg it away from me while they were having so much fun. I do find this frustrating and I feel sad for my pooch as consequently, although his recall is now pretty good it is not 100%....just when I think I can relax a bit he will do a runner. Anyhow, blah blah blah....these are all great play ideas, and the dogs look so happy!
Ah, @charlie, @Lisa - sorry this has made you feel down. You both have rescues and (it seems to me) you are both describing struggling with engagement outdoors, and that's a tough thing to deal with. But it also seems you have come a long way, and are giving your dogs the best life you can manage. They sound like lucky pooches to me.
I doubly hear you Lisa!! Having Hattie as my first dog happy to be with me or the family whether I have a toy or not, sometimes she loves to fetch a ball/frisbee other times not, we do bits of training along the way to keep her brain working, she's got very good recall and stop whistle, she has a good old run around and she's happy, happy, happy so I find it really difficult to adapt to Charlie's ways I think so long as we can keep Simba and Charlie happy and safe we are doing right by them Simba and Charlie are what they are because we had no influence over their lives before us. xx
Thanks Julie, I really appreciate that and I bet Lisa does too. Sometimes it does get me down because I would love Charlie to have fun playing with us, but looking at how far Charlie has come rather than looking at how far we have to go lifts me up a little and is should for you too @Lisa. I know the alternative for Charlie not only being a 'bouncer' but also black would have been absolutely awful I still haven't given up hope so off to buy more balls of different textures etc. just in case x
I guess we see things a little differently on primary/secondary reinforcers as do many "experts". No doubt some dogs would view play as a primary reinforcer but from posts it would appear that for some dogs it does not have the same power. "... three distinguishing features of primary reinforcers: They are fundamental to some aspect of the subject's physiological functioning. They are valued even before any learning has taken place. They are super effective. For greyhounds, for example, play just really isn't in their vocabulary whether with another dog or their owner
Yes, I do appreciate it, thanks Julie. And it is true, the challenge is always to love and appreciate the dog you have, not to be always pining for something that isn't. For example, previous dog whom I could let off lead with absolutely no worry that he would ever run away was the barkiest dog I have ever known, which could be extremely annoying at times! Where as Simba is pretty much perfect in the barking department, he only barks appropriately, which I really appreciate! Anyhow it is good to know that I'm not the only one with a dog who won't play on walks, sometimes it does make you feel a bit of a failure when you hear of others and their experiences. Anyhow I went out yesterday and had some fetch and retrieves in the yard and we had fun together - so I just have to remember to do more of that.
Yes, no doubt many "experts" have different opinions. I'm in the camp of Karen Pryor: If play doesn't equal fun and social interaction, I'm not sure what does.
