Hi Everyone, My puppy is 18 weeks old today and I've noticed over the last 3 days that my lovely obedient dog has become rebellious. Usual obedience training has just gone wrong as she's lost interest half way through a task she would normally have completed easily or she just ignores me altogether. This morning I took her for a walk and instead of coming back to the whistle, which she has done for weeks now without hesitation, she just ignored it. This had consequences - she ran into a barbed wire fence and now has a nasty scrape on her head. Of course things then got worse when I sprayed antiseptic on it because she hated the spray and is now hiding in her crate and refusing to come near me! I'm trying really hard not to get cross, I'm very frustrated and I know she will perceive that even though I'm trying not to show it, so I need a strategy please? Do I put her on the lead and start training basics all over again or is this just a blip? I know we have probably just reached the end of the "golden window" where she wants to do everything I ask, but I don't know what to do about it. Advice would be much appreciated! Thank you Tors & Rio :-\
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! Your puppy isn't being rebellious, and you haven't done anything wrong. Your puppy is just being a puppy that is growing up (although teenage nightmares are a way off for you yet, I should think). A 4.5 month old puppy isn't really trained - when they are small, they do pick up cues easily, and can follow them in low distraction environments. But, then they start growing up, and they change, and the way they view the world changes. So environments are now more exciting, and the puppy more independent - and you haven't trained for this, at all. All you've trained is a puppy that has a high level of focus and dependence on you. It's a much longer process than 4.5 months to train a dog. It takes ages to get things like recall reliable, and you have to train until the dog is well into adulthood, and even then you have to train in order to maintain it.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! Thank you for the reassurance that I haven't done anything wrong. With regard to the training I'd still welcome views as to whether or not she should go on a lead now? I'm loathed to do that since we've done so well off lead, but since I can't trust her to come back now, I assume a lead is a sensible precaution? Julie I can assure you that I didn't think my training days were over; we attend puppy classes weekly, I have books, use "youtube" and am committed to this long term, I simply had not expected that we would go so far backwards on skills that we practise at least daily.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! Whether she is off lead or not depends on where you can take her, and how far she'll run off. If you have a safe area to walk, and she doesn't go far (even if you have to go get because you have no recall) you can still let her off lead. If, however, her safety depends on you having a recall, because you are close by roads or so on, that's different. I wouldn't say a dog scratching its head on a barbed wire fence is a huge safety issue - my dog has a great recall and still does stuff like that.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! Julie has (as always) given you some good advice. I think it's important to start on-lead training as early as possible, in conjunction with your off-lead work. If your puppy pulls on the lead, as most will, it's a lot easier to deal with this when they're smaller, rather than having a 25kg+ dog pulling on the lead! I'm currently using a tactic, both on- and off-lead where I click and treat my dogs for focussing on me. I'm finding it really productive. There's no correction and I'm allowing them to sniff where they want, so no frustration on their part, but as soon as they turn back to me, just a glance or coming back to my side, they get a reward. They very quickly learn that staying with me is a good thing. After a while, I'll drop the lead to the floor and continue with it - by this stage, they're not drifting far away from me at all. Even once I unclip the lead, when I release them to play, they'll stay really close and keep checking in with no prompt from me. So, in effect, I'm nurturing an environment where I'm a better bet to stay with for them than anything else. I've started mixing it up and rewarding with a ball or pine cone every now and again, too. I've only recently started with this approach, so it's definitely a work in progress, and when I know the environment is going to be too much for them to deal with, I either try to avoid that situation or I'll clip them on the lead and get them past it as quickly and quietly as possible. I wouldn't dream of having my dogs off lead near roads, though - except the dead-end road I sometimes walk on in the mornings because there is practically no traffic and plenty of warning to get out of the way.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10210.msg149818#msg149818 date=1426507662] Your puppy isn't being rebellious, and you haven't done anything wrong. Your puppy is just being a puppy that is growing up (although teenage nightmares are a way off for you yet, I should think). A 4.5 month old puppy isn't really trained - when they are small, they do pick up cues easily, and can follow them in low distraction environments. But, then they start growing up, and they change, and the way they view the world changes. So environments are now more exciting, and the puppy more independent - and you haven't trained for this, at all. All you've trained is a puppy that has a high level of focus and dependence on you. It's a much longer process than 4.5 months to train a dog. It takes ages to get things like recall reliable, and you have to train until the dog is well into adulthood, and even then you have to train in order to maintain it. [/quote] This makes sense, my pup is 5 months and she has learnt lots of commands and her recall was getting better, even coming away when called from other dogs !!! But..... Sometimes it all goes wrong, like yesterday in the park when she ran off after another dog and ignored my call and whistle .. I had to go after her and fetch her back in the end :-[ she also sometimes looks the other way if she doesn't want to do a trick... Keep at it I think these blips are sent to test us
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! Ps I would keep letting her off, I do, but as the others have said away from roads etc
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! Thank you all, I am fairly rural so can stay away from roads most of the time. Snowbunny I've seen a clip on youtube about using the clicker for "checking in" as they called it. I'll definitely give that a go and see if I can get her attention back more often when we are out - my puppy class doesn't agree with clickers so I had stopped using it as much - I've just put it in my coat pocket again! They also don't agree with off lead and I was doubting my insistence that she be allowed off after she hurt herself. We have started lead work ourselves and she'll walk on a loose lead for maybe 10 steps - but not the last few days. She also gets spooked very easily and then there is no hope of control. CDM thank you - it is nice to know this is normal, she has been so good at picking up cues and responding that I just couldn't believe she was suddenly ignoring me. I've done some work with her this evening and she was much more attentive in the house, as Julie says I think I just have to accept she is seeing the world differently and it's suddenly more interesting than I am. Thanks again for indulging me. Tors
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! No worries, it is scary when they run off tho but if we don't keep practicing recall I think it becomes more of an issue. It's interesting that your class doesn't agree with clickers or off lead tho?? Why is that?
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! I'm surprised at the no clickers and no off lead in your classes. I can understand the clickers as a personal choice, my trainer here in France doesn't use them but is a great believer in off lead as much as possible.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! Yes, I was surprised too, the also don't allow treats - should have done my homework! I had no idea there was such a huge variety of training styles so my first class was awful as I was doing everything "wrong". They are nice people though and they get results, but not the way I wanted to do it. I only signed up for six lessons so I thought I could manage to achieve what they ask at the class, whilst practising with the clicker and treats at home. We have managed so far but actually it has probably been rather confusing for both myself and the pup. Only a couple to go now and then I can start looking for someone who teaches positive reinforcement with a clicker.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! [quote author=Pawsie link=topic=10210.msg150047#msg150047 date=1426544252] We have managed so far but actually it has probably been rather confusing for both myself and the pup. [/quote] Oh, I know that feeling. I hope you find something better soon, it's just so much better when you are on the same page, and trust, the trainer. I tried loads until I found the right one, and I get on so much better now.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! No treats? Wow. I guess it just shows you how variable trainers and training classes are.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! How do you even take a lab to puppy class without treats? Mine would be nutters if I didn't take a bunch of food to keep her focus on me and not on hugely exciting other dogs. Plus she's not going to do behaviours if I don't reward her for them :/. There's definitely a range of classes out there and some you'll find are better suited.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! As you've only got a couple of lessons left star looking for a new trainer now and ask lots of questions about their training methods. I'm sure you'll find someone who is a better fit for how you want to train your precious pup. The use of treats should be at the owners discretion you know your dog and how they are motivated. Good luck with the search and let us know how you get on.
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! No treats in a puppy class is pretty extreme. I think even the most hardened old school gundog trainers I've met use and certainly allow treats in their puppy classes. Good luck finding someone more suitable, you'll have much more fun and better training when you do
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! It may be worth asking for a recommendation for a trainer through the forum as their is a vast amount of knowledge and experience here, or does your vet have any recommendations. I found my trainer here in France through my vet. Worth a try?
Re: Please Help - Obedience has gone!! A piece of advice in the Gundog manual is to only use your recall when you can be confident it is going to work, so if in doubt don't. I also go back to basics every time I'm somewhere new, ie only recall as dog is already running towards me, all the stuff in learnt to do when Welly was a baby puppy. I always avoid using my recall (whistle) cue if I have any doubts at all about Welly responding it to it, instead if I need to get the dog back or closer, I will run in the opposite direction, crouch down on the ground and pretend to be interested in something, or try the turn about walk as well as rewarding for looking at me etc. I had a blip myself when training Welly only a few weeks ago, right before our Silver test, stuff he'd done ever day for weeks and months in the same location. I couldn't find an explanation but who knows what's in the wind or the ground. You just have to go back a few steps and build back up again...I'm sure it will come back and so will your confidence in your dog...have patience and perseverance and all will be well I'm sure Lisa
