Re: Project Puppy You are right to an extent JulieT, but I think a working bred Lab who lacks drive, has more drive than a show one who lacks drive I was out with a Chocolate Lab on Thursday, a rangy looking one and that had tremendous drive, I was quite envious (in the nicest possible way) Don't think it was bred to be working or show, was just a Lab!
Re: Project Puppy [quote author=Stacia link=topic=5734.msg73242#msg73242 date=1399148680] You are right to an extent JulieT, but I think a working bred Lab who lacks drive, has more drive than a show one who lacks drive [/quote] ;D ;D ;D
Re: Project Puppy I've come to the conclusion that prey drive is much more nature than nurture, Julie. You can encourage and train a dog to retrieve, but dogs born with that strong prey drive are just much more inclined to work hard, all day if necessary, in adverse conditions, than a dog that is retrieving to please its owner. And working line dogs are bred not for their looks, but for their ability and indeed need to work and retrieve.
Re: Project Puppy This debate reminds me of a book, called Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell. He takes many, many example of success - even supposedly genius - which people generally put down to raw talent. Bill Gates, the Beatles, Joseph Flom, Robert Oppenheimer and so on. He does a fantastic job of taking apart the myth of raw talent and explains exceptional success in terms of exceptional opportunity and training. We do not know what the result would be if the same number of show line labs, as working, had the same opportunities and the same training.
Re: Project Puppy Great project. I think that you're doing all the right things - becoming part of the show scene to demonstrate that you're serious and committed. I'd be trying to find a mentor who really knows their stuff, who has dogs you like and who has done very well in the ring over many years. Someone on the inside who will help you end up with a pup with show potential. Someone who can pick the puppy in the litter with the best show confirmation. It's not enough to have a puppy from a show line or show champ parents - you need one of the top two puppies from an excellent litter. Most puppies from show champ parents will not themselves be show winning material. Top quality pups are rare which is why breeders hold onto them. It might take a couple of years before you are 'in' enough to land the right puppy. I spend a bit of time looking at Australian pedigrees. Kennel names that appear in the pedigrees of UK dogs brought into Australia include: Poolstead Trenow Sandylands Trendlewood Cambremer Carpenny Foxrush Rocheby Priorise Not all of the above are still producing dogs as breeders may have died. But those names are good to have in a pedigree. I also like: Warringah Fabracken
Re: Project Puppy [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5734.msg73251#msg73251 date=1399149731] We do not know what the result would be if the same number of show line labs, as working, had the same opportunities and the same training. [/quote] Very true; and I am only speaking from my own, very limited experience. Of the dogs I train with, of course there are show line labs who work extremely well, and I put that down to their will to please, and their training, as well as to their general pleasure in retrieving. But watching a dog that is just BORN to retrieve, who would carry on working all day long not in order to please their owner, or because that is what they have been trained to do - well, those dogs are just on a different level as regards their prey drive. I'm not arguing this point for the sake of it Julie; I am really convinced that there is a deep difference between dogs bred from show lines and those bred from working lines. That's why this experiment of Lochan's is so fascinating...
Re: Project Puppy [quote author=Karen link=topic=5734.msg73225#msg73225 date=1399146121] chunky but not fat [/quote] Chunky is an excuse to be fat. I hear it all to often
Re: Project Puppy Lochan's goal is not to have a FTCh but a dog that will pick up. The plan is mainly an experiment with an N of 1. The experiment: Prove that dog can do well in show ring, in whatever condition required. Get dog fit. Prove that dog can function as a working gundog. Keep dog in working condition. Have another try in show ring to see if dog can emulate initial success while in working condition. To test this she'll need a really well bred show line dog that has a reasonable desire to carry and retrieve stuff. And there'll be a need to enter lots of shows to iron out any differences and personal preferences that judges bring to their judgements. The retrieving is only part of this equation.
Re: Project Puppy [quote author=Karen link=topic=5734.msg73263#msg73263 date=1399151252] I'm not arguing this point for the sake of it Julie; I am really convinced that there is a deep difference between dogs bred from show lines and those bred from working lines. [/quote] I'm quite sure you are really convinced. I though, am not - and I'm also not arguing for the sake of it. I think there is too much bias - in views, in anecdotes, too much variation in training, opportunity, even in encouragement, attitudes and expectations, to be anything like sure nature plays such a significant part as claimed. Away, go Lochan. My money, for what it is worth, is that the average show dog in expert hands would wipe the floor with a well bred working dog in average hands.
Re: Project Puppy I can only speak as my experience finds.... When I was showing German Wirehaired Pointers 15 or so years ago there were no show bred dogs. They all worked be it in shooting, or falconry, or obedience or trials etc
Re: Project Puppy [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5734.msg73274#msg73274 date=1399152276]My money, for what it is worth, is that the average show dog in expert hands would wipe the floor with a well bred working dog in average hands. [/quote] I agree expert handlers really can 'make' a dog and, whatever breeding, a successful show dog has to have that special pride/attitude
Re: Project Puppy I think the fact that certain behavioural characteristics can be bred for demonstrates that they are present to variable degrees and also not entirely nurture. We see it at its most extreme in breeds. I never met a Labrador that was good at herding, but I've met plenty of Border Collies who are. Sight hounds are not generally known as retrievers, but Labradors are. Those traits have been selected for. Overall, most Labradors will make better retrievers than most Whippets. But some Labradors will be more keen on it than other Labradors. Same with other characteristics like swimming. Labradors are supposed to love the water but there are Labradors owned by people on here who don't, or who have even had to be taught to swim. I think that the selection for retrieving desire that has happened for many years in field type dogs has to have made a difference. Surely there are more naturally talented retrievers represented in that group. I DO also think that there are show line Labs that can retrieve keenly all day. I've seen them do it in Flyball, all day, in 30 degree heat. Are there show line dogs good enough and keen enough to be able to work? Of course there are. No-one is saying all show dogs are rubbish. There would be a big overlap in retrieving ability across the two groups (show and field) even if there are more naturally outstanding individuals in the field group and even if the field group is naturally better on average (which I have no problem accepting). And of course it also takes a good handler. Every weekend at our dog club I see the difference that a good handler makes. A fabulous dog in poor hands will go nowhere but any dog in good hands can get somewhere. In relation to Lochan's goal I see the challenge as being getting hold of a good enough show dog - with the right shape and attitude (also critical, as MMM says). Of all the challenges the retrieving bit will be the easiest I suspect.
Re: Project Puppy Certainly the difficulty at present is buying the right puppy with the ability to make it in the show ring. This is not easy, especially for someone who really has had nothing to do with show dogs at all. And I can understand the breeders attitude - they might only breed one or two of the type of pups I want in 5-10 years of breeding so why sell it to someone who may never have it in what they consider to be "show condition", and said breeder would probably have a coronary on the spot at the thought of me taking such a dog and trying to make it into a lean fit retriever who can work all day. I am convinced that there is a strong genetic link to the ability and drive to work. Of my current two dogs, one is strong Delfleet/Ettinsmoor lines and has enormous drive, she will work all day for me and then some. She is not for the faint-hearted to handle. Her full brother from the next litter is exactly the same. My other dog is Drakeshead lines, she is much more steady and would stand on a peg all day quite happily - of the two, in expert hands the steady Drakeshead lines dog could probably trial whereas my prey-driven Delfleet and her brother would probably have been chucked out of a good working kennel by 1yo as more trouble than they were worth to train. So, same handler, same training methods two different results with what would appear to be a genetic bias to drive. It is extremely unlikely I will ever own a FTCh as I have neither the time nor talent to do this no matter how many FTCh are in the pedigree of a working lines pup I buy. I know this for sure, with experience in this side of the labrador world. However, I have two reasonably well-trained dogs who can hold their own on a day out shooting and be asked back, and I see no reason why I cannot do the same with a show dog unless the drive to retrieve is lost genetically. So, what makes me think I can own a ShCh? Maybe there is just as much skill in producing the perfect dog for the show ring as there is in the perfect dog for the field? I don't know, but if I can educate myself about the show world, get hold of a pup which can win at showing, and can do a decent days work in the field and then go back to the show ring and do nicely whilst in working condition I will be proud and delighted at that, and also pleased to think that show judges DO look at conformation and aren't simply picking these very heavy specimens and calling fat "condition" or "bone". Watch this space!
Re: Project Puppy Agree 100%. Are you happy to have a male dog or are you only wanting a bitch? Breeders may be more willing to part with a good male.
Re: Project Puppy When I started this project I definitely only wanted a bitch (my preference only, have always had them, etc etc). But I have become much more relaxed about this because, as you say, it may be easier for me to get the right pup as a male. So now it is simply a matter of finding the right pup.
Re: Project Puppy You would need to keep your show dog entire I think for showing purposes? And I think your trialling trainer would snap up your high drive dog all the trialling dogs I've seen(only a handful) seem to spend their life on the edge they're super fast and bold with huge energy and drive to retrieve. Successful trainers seem happy to rein that in but it's next to impossible to generate that kind of desire. I'm totally with you hoping the show judges genuinely look for conformation and not condition.
Re: Project Puppy I don't have much to add from my experience, but I am following this with great interest as I would love to know how it all works out. With regards to some dogs having higher drives than others - Penny is working line bred, her parents pick up every weekend, and whilst they do not have FTCh, there are some in her grandparents and further back. Penny definitely has a high retrieving drive and would retrieve until she dropped from exhaustion, but she's not what you would call steady - she has a strong chase instinct and probably I high prey drive. her eye never leaves the dummy when it's been thrown. In that respect I guess she's pretty good as she'll go straight to it with no hesitation, and she's pretty good at hide and seek games so I imagine her blind retrieve would be ok. She's also got a bit of thing where she likes to stalk things, and she kind of points too sometimes :a my mum jokingly asked if she is actually a lab.... On the other end of the scale is a friend of the family who has a lab only a few months older than Penny. She is also working stock but has been allowed to become overweight giving her the fat lab look we see all too often. She has no retrieving instinct whatsoever but whether that is natural instinct or just the way she has been brought up is hard to know. Would be interesting to see her pedigree.
Re: Project Puppy [quote author=Oberon link=topic=5734.msg73330#msg73330 date=1399157630] There would be a big overlap in retrieving ability across the two groups (show and field) even if there are more naturally outstanding individuals in the field group and even if the field group is naturally better on average (which I have no problem accepting). [/quote] I don’t disagree with this at all. And if it is true, it means it is incorrect to say things like "a working bred Lab who lacks drive, has more drive than a show one who lacks drive". It's also too much of a sweeping statement to say things like "there is a deep difference between dogs bred from show lines and those bred from working lines". Assuming an infinite number of show line retrievers, and working line retrievers, in perfectly experts hands, It probably looks something like this (you could draw the same graph for whippets, collies and so on, but the distributions would probably be much more extreme show line and working line IN EXPERT HANDS by JulieTandCharlie, on Flickr In the category of good working dogs there would be lots of a show dogs, and lots of working dogs – indeed in the (completely fictional) normal distributions and categories I have drawn here, most show dogs would be in the category of good working dogs. But how many show dogs are in expert hands? Almost none. So what part does nurture play in this? I think it will be a huge effect. So looking at the (fictional but the same) distribution in non expert hands – I think actual nurture would shift the resulting categories massively (represented by the vertical lines) to the right. Like this: show line and working line IN AVERAGE HANDS by JulieTandCharlie, on Flickr And now if we were to focus in on the category of good working dogs in average hands we would now see many, many, more working dogs than show dogs in this category. This is what we probably see in “real life” and what leads to the view there is such a very big difference between show and working lines based on nature. In reality, my view is the difference is much, much less than it seems from individual experiences and anecdote and the overwhelming difference in the real life results we see is likely to be nurture.
