Hi, My puppy is now 6 months and generally doing great. We have been steadfastly applying the advice found on this forum - many thanks to all who take time to provide the advice. He is however now jumping up to reach the kitchen worktops, putting his paws on them and, recently, (and worryingly for his safety) also doing so on the cooker! We don't leave items out that he can get to, this behaviour is generally when I'm working in the kitchen. We have tried quietly removing him then rewarding a nice sit. Have also tried telling him 'off', again rewarding sit. Recently tried ignoring him and waiting for him to get down but can't do that when he's on the cooker! Appreciate he is being rewarded therefore continuing with the behaviour but can't figure out if it's our responding to remove him or saying 'off' that's the reward or if he is self rewarding (he doesn't get anything). Any advice as to how to help him learn nice manners here (and stay safe) would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I train as possitively as possible, but when there is a potentially dangerous behaviour, then I would apply a very firm "NO!". I appreciate that a few on here don't agree with such methods. You may be a bit late for this to work though now that it is an established behaviour. Really for it to work it needs to be the first time they do it.
We always had a child gate on our kitchen door and kept them the other side for quite a while. It’s too dangerous having a bouncy lab in the way when cooking !
I agree with Edp: a 6 mo lab should not be underfoot whilst you're cooking. A baby gate is nice because the dog can see you & you can reinforce/capture calm behavior. Other possibilities are putting the pup in his crate with a kong or using a bed or mat in the corner of the kitchen to train "place". Unless your pup is very sensible and laid back I might keep him out of the kitchen when you use the stove for now and when he's more mature try training him to go to his place and build the stay. Distance: from place spot to cooker/kitchen work area Distraction: prep and cooking stuff, you moving from cooker to sink, fridge, countertop, rattling pots and pans Duration: gradual increase and see where you are
Thank you for the quick responses. Just for context, I can prepare his food on the worktops or get his training treats ready without him jumping up. He does little bounces beside me but you can see he's trying so hard not to jump up. When he's sitting nicely at my side this calm behaviour is rewarded. When I'm actually cooking he just lies down or uses his chew. There hasn't been an actual safety issue yet as he's 100% supervised at all times but now with paws on the cooker (once, when cold) the potential for a safety issue is clearly there, therefore I'm looking to address this at the outset Paws on worktops have been while I'm doing the dishes etc, my back is turned and he takes the opportunity to check the worktops out. He lies nicely in his playpen while we are eating.
Maybe try a stove guard (like they have for kids) while you work on the training. https://www.dreambaby.com.au/stove-guard.html
Dogs and kitchens are just a bad combination. Why? If a dog jumps up onto a counter or table even ONCE and successfully eats even minute particles of food or crumbs there, they have been powerfully reinforced for that behaviour. Reinforced behaviour is made stronger and will occur more often. The dog will therefore attempt to jump up even more frequently. The more often the dog jumps up, the more likely the dog is to find something. And so on. Until you have a committed counter-surfer. The only two ways around this problem are: 1. ALWAYS have someone supervising the dog in the kitchen at all times and able to prevent jumping up using a house-line before it occurs and before the dog is reinforced by finding food. Or: 2. Remove the dog from the kitchen at all times when the dog doesn't need to be there. 2. is far simpler than 1 and involves much less time and really is the only practical solution. My puppies are in the kitchen until they are around 16-20 weeks - crated under the kitchen table, coming out to train in the kitchen itself and with easy access to outdoors for toilet training. After 16-20 weeks they move to a giant crate in the office with the adult dogs. From then on, dogs are only ever in the kitchen if they are 1) passing through to go outdoors to toilet or 2) if I am preparing their food or feeding them. They are not in the kitchen at any other time - there's a stair-gate on the kitchen doorway. An open plan house is much harder to implement this kind of thing with, but even then there is often a way the kitchen area can be stair-gated off at either end....
Hi Thanks again. Just to reiterate. Pup has not been rewarded by getting anything to eat - there's been nothing for him to get and he is under constant supervision at all times. When there is food on the go (either his or ours) he is well behaved as described. Jo, the option 1 you described is what I've done to quietly remove him with no fuss just a consistent message. He was also doing it on some items of furniture but has stopped that with the same consistent message being given so hopefully he'll get that it applies in the kitchen too (with persistence).
But learning theory tells us that if a dog continues to perform a behaviour, that behaviour has been reinforced. That is just science, there's no arguing with it. It may be that you've been unaware of a few crumbs he manages to get. OR it may be that the behaviour of investigating what you are up to, on the kitchen counter, is itself reinforcing - learning what is going on and satisfying his curiosity about it, or just getting closer to whatever he thinks is up there. Whatever it is, there is a reinforcer occurring, or the behaviour would not continue. But what is this 'consistent message'? Dog training doesn't have 'consistent messages'. It has reinforcers and it has punishers - and then it has ineffective verbiage which is neither. If you give what you think is a 'consistent message' and the behaviour of jumping up there decreases (even temporarily), then what you did was a punisher for the dog. That may be a negative punishment (dog loses what he thought was on the side and wanted to check out - which only further implies that jumping up there was reinforcing - see above) or it could be a positive punishment - your 'consistent message' is actually verbal positive punishment. Which isn't how we want to train. OR: Your 'consistent message' doesn't have either effect and he re-attempts jumping up again quite soon afterwards. In which case, it is just ineffective verbiage and isn't training the dog.... Again, I would be very suspicious about this 'consistent message', since if the dog's behaviour of jumping on the furniture is decreasing after it, then it is a punisher.... A much better way to approach the situation, is to use management and prevention so the dog just never thinks of jumping on the furniture in the first place. If you do this consistently, the dog never will, even when he has the opportunity....
Hi The consistent message is that when he sits nicely / has four paws on the floor he is rewarded / given positive reinforcement. IE the behaviour we want to continue is rewarded. As you say Jo, I knew that since he was continuing the behaviour he'd obviously been rewarded in some way important to him and I was trying to work out if that reward was our attention which had, momentarily, been diverted to something other than him! Him just being curious is definitely an option tho! He is most definitely that. Thanks again
While we are generally positive trainers, we definitely use the NO when we find the pup doing something we don't want them to do. We normally don't make any effort to keep the dogs out of the kitchen. We have a gate, but we are more likely to keep them in the kitchen than out. Normally the gate is open and they can go anywhere they want.
Thank you. I need to use the kitchen as a puppy area, no option. I just need to manage this as best I can. Good to know others do use the kitchen too.
We use the kitchen too. I have taken the same approach as you consistently rewarding behaviour we like (paws on the floor, taking himself to bed etc) so now when I'm cooking he actually moves further away from the food or flattens himself into the most 'down' down he can manage. If he is interpreting my occasional 'no' as punishment then I can live with that if the message is getting through. I don't think it's as cruel as having to cage him.
We definitely use the kitchen. We have to go through the kitchen to get outside, not to mention I am in the kitchen a lot. Maggie is also 6 months
It sounds like a behaviour chain to me: He jumps on the side. You ask him not to and cue another behaviour like a sit, then you reinforce him. He starts the chain off, by jumping on the side. The opportunity to sit and earn a reinforcer, is reinforcing the jumping on the side...
