I've watched the kikkopup video that Jen kindly recommended a couple of times now and think I'm going to try this approach for 'stay' or rather steadiness when retrieving, as that seems to be our problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk4PPcE1CqY In the video the trainer uses a release command. If I manage to teach this to Molly, how does it fit in with retrieving a dummy? At the moment I try to get her to sit while it's thrown and then say 'fetch' (the problem being that she often breaks, even if I throw the dummy just a couple of feet.) If I train a release word would I need to use that as well as 'fetch'? Or am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?
Re: Query about a release command The dog should move either on your release, or on any other cue. "Fetch" is a cue. The Kikopup video doesn't cover this, but in "real" life, I find that I very rarely release my dog from a sit (sit-wait in my case) with my release cue unless my dog is on a mat in the house. I usually want them to do something else. So when the Kikopup video is doing "rhubarb - that doesn't mean release" "apple crumble - that doesn't mean release" that's fine, but "Fetch" still means Fetch and you would not train your dog to ignore it in the same way as you would train them to ignore a "blah blah" cue. You use "blah blah" cues to test all sorts of things - see if your dog goes down on "down" and "blah blah" (obviously insert "blah blah" in the middle of a few "downs").
Re: Query about a release command [quote author=Joy link=topic=8086.msg114138#msg114138 date=1412189437] At the moment I try to get her to sit while it's thrown and then say 'fetch' (the problem being that she often breaks, even if I throw the dummy just a couple of feet.) [/quote] Are you next to Molly when you throw the dummy? This can be hard for dogs as there is movement very close to them. Try stepping away from her and drop rather than throw the dummy. This also puts you between her and the dummy so she's got to get past you to get to the dummy. When she's steady to this you can throw rather than drop and then you can move back to her side and throw from there. Hope that helps
Re: Query about a release command Thanks both. Julie - what you say makes sense, thanks. Barbara - I've also tried walking away and putting the dummy on the ground. She stays until I start to return to her, but then breaks. But I think you're right, I need to do it right next to her first. I've been so pleased that she's keen to retrieve and always brings it to me that I've been reluctant to shout 'no' when she runs in, which is what my trainer says I should do. I think I'll give the kikkopup clicker approach a try.
Re: Query about a release command I don't think you should shout "no" when she runs in - I don't like shouting at my dog. Get a helper. If she runs in, get them to pick up the dummy. If she doesn't run in, she gets to fetch the dummy. Was the only thing that was able to communicate the concept of "steadiness" to dummy mad Charlie. Inconvenient though it was to only train with a helper, it did the trick....
Re: Query about a release command I would be very cautious about reprimanding her for running in too. You want to maintain a strong outrun and reprimanding her may make her unsure of what you want. When we were last on Exmoor the lovely trainer showed me how I had effectively sent Riley with my body language well before I ever said a word or gave a conscious cue. It would have been unfair to tell him off for running in as I had caused it (I learnt a lot about being fair that weekend). Julie's suggestion is good or do more memory retrieves as you can pop her on her lead as you head away from the dummy. Try and use corridors too then she's less likely to be able to get past you to the dummy until you're ready for her to retrieve
Re: Query about a release command Yes I think you're right Barbara. I like my trainer but because I'm in a class of 4 where 2 are more advanced, he seems to be trying to push us on more quickly than we can manage. We get on much better in corridors but this week some of the time was in a large field and it just didn't work.
Re: Query about a release command You probably do all of this already so apologies if so When dummies get thrown do you tell her to "leave it"? You can reinforce this leave it when you go and throw a dummy for her. Leave her sat, walk away a little. Make eye contact and use your visual signal for sit and say "leave it". Throw the dummy. Watch her like a hawk as you walk back if she looks tense or poised to run then stop and reinforce your leave it again. You can stand in front of her when you get back to her, wait for eye contact....Riley used to be ducking round me to see the dummy ;D I just kept moving til he looked up at me. You can also walk her away just a couple of paces it might help her to settle and release some tension without legging it in the direction of the dummy. Just a few thoughts......feel free to completely ignore me and apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs ;D
Re: Query about a release command Certainly not teaching me to suck eggs! Although this is my fourth dog, it's my first attempt at gun dog training. Got to admit I don't really have a leave it command. If she picks up something she shouldn't have I say 'swap' and exchange it for a treat. (As a young puppy I taught leave it which worked indoors but not out and about, with things like dead seagulls, which is why I changed to swap.) Also interested that you say I should make eye contact as my trainer has said not to make eye contact as she'll see this as an invitation to come. Mind you as it's not working I might try eye contact and see what happens. Blocking her view of the dummy definitely helps. We now seem to have mastered retrieves which are placed behind her so that she has to go back - we were having difficulty with these a few weeks ago but now seem OK.
Re: Query about a release command Asking for eye contact before sending a dog for a seen retrieve is a slightly controversial point. Some trainers really don't like it because it takes the dog's eye off the retrieve or fall area and can make the retrieve more difficult. I have trained Alice and Caddie to look at me before sending them for a seen retrieve. They were both shocking for running in when young and this method stopped it. It hasn't really handicapped their retrieving but I do understand what those trainers who are set against it mean. I would just pop a short training lead on her collar, not longer than 30cm or so, which will give you some control and which can stay attached to the collar when you send her for the retrieve. I believe the eye contact your trainer refers to is when you return to the dog after a sit and stay. That is a different scenario.
Re: Query about a release command Obviously your trainer is more experienced than me and is watching you and your dog The reason I looked for eye contact was so that I could be sure the dog was focussed on me and not the dummy. I was never at a distance where I couldn't have maintained a sit/stay and if the dog did come to me I would just walk it back to its spot and ask it to sit again without any drama or telling off. I guess as you're in class she's used to not every dummy being for her but does she get all the dummies that you throw? If so I would also go and pick up dummies or get one of the other dogs to retrieve just so she gets used to not having everything from you. It's another reason it's good t have an assistant.
Re: Query about a release command To Heidrun's point if I'm by his side riley doesn't look at me in advance of marked retrieves and I don't expect him to I'd rather he hold his mark. If I'm out in front of him though and moving around it's quite likely that just because I'm moving around he'll look at me. That's where your visual sit cue and your leave it come in.....before he thinks about coming toward me I've already told him what I want him to do which is sit and leave the dummy. Good luck however you decide to tackle it
Re: Query about a release command Just going back to the stay cue and release command. I've trained a stay cue and a wait cue. Stay = stay there, don't move until I return to you and release you, chill out, relax I might be some time. Wait = stay there but be ready I'm going to ask you to do something. With the stay I use the release cue when I get back to them with the wait I might use the release, retrieve, recall etc from any distance. I did this after advice Rachael gave me and it works very well. I can't do links but if you search for Proof sit stay in all situations you will find it. It's on the clicker board page 3 I think. I used, technically that should be use, wait to train them to be steady to a thrown retrieve. I cue sit, cur wait, move a few steps away, repeat wait if I think I need to, throw the dummy then cue fetch. I trained the wait exactly the same as the stay but released them from a distance with whatever cue I fancied. Don't know if that's any help. ;D
Re: Query about a release command Yes that is what he was referring to, but also when I'm walking back to her having dropped a dummy. I think that's what Barbara was talking about : I think I do need to try again with a 'leave it' command. This morning I've had a go with the clicker and have practised what Molly can already do - i.e. ignore me walking around waving my arms etc - and then introduced a toy (rather than the dummy), initially just placing it on the ground next to me and then picking it up again before going back to her and then dropping it by my side. She broke from the stay once, but had many good attempts and between each one I released her and we had a tuggy game. I think I'll practise this some more and then move on to throwing it a very short distance but collecting it myself. It probably would be easier with an assistant but I don't really have anyone to help me, outside the class I attend. I'll try this. It's hopeless leaving her lead on as she just starts to play with it, rolling around on her back! But perhaps a very short line would work. Thanks all.
