Hi everyone New to the site, found it via an article in a dog magazine which pippa helped with After a little advice if possible please.... We have a golden retriever, male, 19 months old. He has been through apdt training classes all the way to advanced, he knows what a recall is and we trained him with a whistle so that he knows when he hears it there is food. Last week on a walk he did a runner for 10 minutes, we had no idea where he was but he found his way back to us so obviously decided in the end that we were worth coming back to. He has vanished a few minutes before once but generally it's more a case of just refusing to come back because he wants to do what he wants. He loves chasing things so if anything moves he is off. When he was younger we hid from him, walked in different directions and even still do now tho not as much, he has always been extremely confident though when out and about, he has never really stuck very close by, he frequently goes in and out of woodland out of sight but we can normally hear his collar so he isn't really too far. He will recall if he decides he wants to. But if there is a fox, deer, cat, you name it there is no chance. The problems we are having with the normal advice you read is that he has a sensitive tummy so we have to be careful with what treats and how many. The best we have found so far is cheese but after a certain number if recalls or indeed just general training such as a 'down' he gets bored of it (he is very fussy with food!) and will begin to run back so he is just out of reach give us a cursory look and run away or will come back for the treat but spit it out and run off! Toys hold no value, he has a ball at home which is the best toy on the planet indoors, take it out with us and he doesn't care. If we squeak it he looks up but if we throw it he gives up the chase as its about to land or just after and then rambles off again. He is so so excited by everything else that nothing we produce is nearly as good. We went out for an hour with him on his long lead yesterday and he just once turned to look at us, at all other time he was either pulling or stopping to sniff and look around. Having said that is we dashed away (when we could if the lead was slack!) he came over immediately to us to see what we were doing but his focus lasted seconds and then back to the big wide world. What is it we want? We would love a dog that actually walks with us but don't think he is going to ever be that! So what do we think is achievable, well we would like to have a dog that pays us a little attention out of his own choice not because we call him or squeak a toy, it would be nice if he showed a level of care for us! I would also like to work to break through when he else's chase deaf and tho we know he hears the whistle he chooses to ignore it totally. We are anxious about letting him off now he has run away, he means the absolute world to us and if anything happened to him it would break my heart but I don't want to confine him to a lead. I've tried to give as much info as I can, sorry if it's too much and sorry if you need more! Just let me know! Thanks so much everyone and pippa if you are reading this do you ever do house visits?! To Surrey?!
Re: Questionable recall! Hi there and welcome to the forum I'm afraid I don't do house calls, but there are plenty of trainer that do. You may be able to find one through the APDT website. It is very frustrating when you have been through the training process and the dog seems to know what to do, but insists on doing his own thing. And you are not alone in this problem. Building a good recall is about creating a 'trained response'. An automatic behaviour that the dog carries out without question or thought. Knowing a whistle means food is not the same as being trained to recall to the whistle. One common mistake is to reward every single recall. This does not create a trained response, it creates a dog that weighs up the benefits of the reward he expects to get from coming to you, against the benefits of the reward he gets from chasing after things. And your treats are unlikely to cut it. Creating a real 'automatic' trained response takes time and a little cunning. Part of the key is teaching a dog to move towards you when he wants something, rather than towards the thing he wants. This has to be done in stages. Once a dog has a 'chasing' habit, it can be a long journey to a good recall. But it can be done. So don't despair. It sounds as though you need help with the correct use of rewards, appropriate use of the training lead, and would benefit from some information on proofing. Have a look at some of the articles in the recall training centre and let us know what you need in the way of more information. With regard to treats, I find that little chunks of roast meat is the most effective way to get the dog's attention at the start of the training process. But, you cannot just keep doling out the rewards. They have to be used appropriately or they will not have the required effect. Hope you find the articles helpful. Pippa
Re: Questionable recall! Hi pippa Thanks for the quick reply I may have misled you a little with the whistle, we did train him the whistle means to come to us but we never progressed from not having a food reward every time because he never did it 100% of the time :/ We tend to find anything meat based gives him a bad tummy so everything we give him tends to be fish based or peanut butter or cheese. It's very hard to vary it enough for him considering how quickly he gets bored. Thank you for the links, I'm also planning to get your book A couple of questions, if we blow the whistle and he doesn't come what should we do?! If that's a possibility should he be on lead so we can pull him back to us? Is it still worth walking in random directions and hiding? Bearing in mind that he doesn't check back on us that often he may go some way before he realises we have vanished! Would blowing the whistle and then us running away be a good idea? I flatter myself to think he would actually be very distressed if he couldn't find us, but he is so excited to be out and about that he focuses so heavily on what's around he sort of forgets about us and I worry one time he might go too far and he won't find his way back or else he will hurt himself etc He isn't a total run away, but he is very very excited and lacks focus and attention on us. I think I forgot to say he is also an entire male...
Re: Questionable recall! Hi Milan, this sounds just like Lilly! : Apart from Lilly is girl and was dressed before her first season. She is 2yrs and 4 months now. Definitely no sensitive tum either. We had a perfect walk this morning (on the long lead - me dancing about in all directions to keep her attention). This was after she took off after hares yesterday and I had not a clue where she was. Just wanted to say I know how you feel :-[ Jacqui
Re: Questionable recall! Thank you, maybe we should put Lilly and albie together and they can play! Lol Thing is I'm really unsure about letting him off lead now :/ he nearly got kicked in the face by a horse the same day he ran, just a few minutes before, again he didn't care about them until the riders cantered and then he was glued to them like a magnet. I don't mind if he wants to run off as long as he promises not to get hurt! Sounds like you don't always work on lead? Ours has been on lead for almost a week now but I'm thinking the less he can be allowed to roam the more mad he will go when we let him back off! Who said owning a dog was calming?! And so much for a relaxing Sunday walk! I'm so jealous of ppl whose dogs walk with them when off lead, must be so nice.
Re: Questionable recall! Hello and welcome from me too Milan . Sorry I cant really add anything to what Pippa has said but I think this is something many dogs go through, this teenage rebelling stage and its no joke : My Lab boy Sam is almost 15 months old , his recall was fine 95% of the time but every so often , he would ignore, especially when he spied other dogs or children ( adores both ) I had to take him back to basics, it was easier because he is food driven and will sell his very soul for a treat of sausage, it must be so much harder for you having a boy who has an iffy tummy . Have you thought about some gundog training for him or even just a local training class ? I wont be working Sam as such, but did find the gundog trainer to have some invalueable advice and he enjoyed it too , the discipline is good for them, as is the mental stimulation which goes a long way towards keeping them onside, so to speak .
Re: Questionable recall! Hi Kate He hasn't ever been madly food orientated but he does have things he likes but yes it is hard with an iffy tummy, and he gets bored of everything so so quickly that we don't have much of a range to rotate! He was in training classes, normal obedience ones apdt run, he went all the way to advanced. I had considered gun dog training as I wondered if it might give him an outlet to carry out his antics but in a controlled training environment which we can then carry out elsewhere. I'll look into it a little more thanks
Re: Questionable recall! Hi Milan Recall training is a process. You need to start at the beginning and work your way through until the end. I don't really agree with the teenage theories I'm afraid. It has to do with increasing confidence and maturity of the dog challenging the skills of the owner, but this is not necessarily a temporary thing. Some people prevail, learn how to cope, and assume that the dog has 'grown out of' his teenage phase, but many others never succeed and the dog is permanently out of control. Experienced trainers do not have problems with 'teenage' dogs. Try not to think of it as being related to the age/stage of the dog. It is to do with the stage you have got to in the training process. It sounds as if you are kind of trying to dive in at a random point if that makes sense. Patching up holes in training as you go. Which is not going to work. You need to go back to the beginning and start again, working through a proper programme of recall training in a logical manner. Preferably with an entirely new recall command. As you have ordered the book, that should answer your questions in far more detail than I can here. Hopefully you will have it an a few days time. Fingers crossed! In the meantime, if you are worried for your dog's safety have him trail a training lead whilst you are out so that you have some control over him. And definitely make use of his 'chase' instincts by running away from him when you call him. There is information on changing directions in the about turn walk article and heaps more info in the book. Hope you find it helpful Pippa
Re: Questionable recall! Reading your reply Pippa and a light has come on I realise now that the mistake I made and no doubt countless others too, is to relax too soon and assume that we have it all cracked, instead of keeping up the regime . I certainly let go a little , thinking that Sam was obedient and that recall was good for life, instead of realising that as his confidence grew, he actually needed more training and not less
Re: Questionable recall! I think the teenage phase is actually when we think they've got it and begin to relax. We all know our dogs, especially labradors of course, are not stupid and they very quickly grasp that we're not paying them as much attention, being as accurate in our commands and rewards (be it a ball, food or click) or 'punishment' (ignoring, about turn or arms folded and a 'paddington bear stare' in my case). But I do think the teenage phase exists between the other dogs in the group, usually well before owners are thinking about teenage tantrums. At some point the adults stop accepting the puppy behaviour and it can take a few snippy barks before the pup understands that the rest are treating her as an adult with quite a bit of sulking and extreme puppy poses in between, if you leave them to it it can be quite funny to watch ;D Nothing can sulk quite a lab. Sorry wandered a bit off original subject. Back to the point. My girls are now 12 and 5 they have a recall refresher every time we go out, first recall is always rewarded and then it varies depending upon dog, environment, distance of and speed of return and to be honest how much attention I'm paying them! Rewarding them is easy, food and big smile works every time but the wolfie has a doggy tum and isn't too food orientated neither does he care for balls (being a hound) but a big smile, a cheery voice and a hug seem to be enough for him - sometimes I feel a real fool cavorting about like a two year old with him telling him what a wonderful boy he is and how well he's done, but if that's what it takes...
Re: Questionable recall! One of the things we struggle with is setting up the scenarios to proof the recall but there's no doubt in my mind that's what's needed. It is lovely when you do get that automatic response As the farmer our way has been out and about with his gun having Riley under control is absolutely imperative. We're working on a long lead or flexi until I'm sure there's no one around and we do some offlead training or games. So our walks are a mix of on and off lead. This gives me confidence which I think in turn makes the recall and training we do more successful.
Re: Questionable recall! Barbara, that's so much it. Confidence. Strictly speaking Finnegan belongs to my Mum, but she's frightened of his strength and he knows it. I'm smaller than her but more bossy(!) and Finnegan behaves beautifully for me but is a real trial for Mum. When we go out together she gets so frustrated because he's being bolshy but as soon she gives me his lead and he's a different dog. Trust in yourself and your dog will too.
Re: Questionable recall! My elderly mum has a very young (8 months) border collie, who was not listening to her AT ALL. She loves playing ball and is very clever, and would never come back to mum to be put on her lead. When I was over in the summer, I spent some time with the pup, rushing around like a mad person on the beach, playing with her, running, chasing, throwing the ball, playing 'search and find' games, and generally getting her attention and making her think I was the best and most interesting thing out there! I also practised putting the lead on her, walking for a couple of minutes, and then taking the lead off again, so she didnt think a recall meant that was the end of the walk... Do you know, this worked like magic? My mum has spent a lot of time making working out ways to make herself more interesting to the puppy, who now comes back when called and has changed from being a bit of a dangerous headache (mum was afraid to let her off the lead near the beach since one time when she dashed out into the road through the traffic) to being a reliable, although lively, dog! Of course, I hurt my back charging around like a mad thing on the beach... but it was worth it. Maybe it would help if you could work out what exactly it is that would keep your dog interested in you. It could well be that that might be gundog training, or perhaps he would enjoy searching for a dummy or toy using scent... Chasing around wildly sounds like a dog that hasnt learned to apply his concentration to anything in particular. These ideas are of course in addition to Pippa's recall training. Good luck and keep us updated! 8)
Re: Questionable recall! Hi Milan I'm not going to add anything about the training as you've had lots of good advice already but am going to suggest you check out the recipe section. I too have a lab with a trick tummy which is why I started making my own dog biscuits. I do get a much sharper recall when they know I have pichard biscuits in my pocket or banana ones the knack is to vary the rewards and have something really special tucked away too for when they are exceptional or just to keep them guessing. Biscuits are much cleaner and easier to carry than bits of cheese. it's also quite fun when we meet other dogs when I ask if it's ok to reward it - the number of times I get told "oh she's not keen on biscuits" or "won't take anything off a stranger" and then "well I never" as their dog happily scoffs it down 8) Tip - invest in ziploc bags if carrying fishy biscuits especially if you forget and wear that coat out to a pub
